Ash Beckham

Welcome to the Puck Venture Capital and Beyond, the show that examines the changing landscape of our world. We'll have candid conversations with VCs, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders grappling with our current challenges and providing solutions to key problems we face as a nation. I'm Jim Beer, president of CMG Advisors. This podcast brings change makers to the table to discover the inner workings behind their decision making strategies and ultimately how they got to where they are today. I don't have to agree with you to be empathetic towards you.

I just have to be willing to know what it's like to walk in your shoes. On today's episode On today's episode of The Puck, I have the pleasure of sitting down with Ash Beckham, a self described accidental activist. She is a globally recognized speaker, professional trainer, and workshop facilitator who focuses on starting conversations about the importance of acceptance and empathy. We discuss her book, Step Up, How to Live with Courage and Become an Everyday Leader. We explore her inclusive and pivotal TEDx Talk entitled Coming Out of Your Closet, and hear her thoughts and insights on how to navigate meaningful conversations from opposing perspectives.

Ash Beckham, welcome to the Puck. We are excited to have you. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks. So you refer to yourself as an accidental advocate, and I'm going to read from your own personal website.

It says, I had no intention of entering the public speaking space. I was just living in Boulder, doing my thing until about twenty thirteen. My level of activism was just being myself, a gender nonconforming, shaved headed lesbian. I had a great group of friends. My family supported me.

I lived in a community that was for the most part safe. So first question, what did doing your own thing entail? I was reluctantly an entrepreneur, I think, think. That's what my parents had both done. It's kind of all I knew, so I swore I would define myself in opposition to that.

I wanted, like, the corner office and the power suits and all the things. And about a year into working for another organization, it's became quickly apparent to me that I was gonna be best served working working on my own. So doing my thing was kind of piecing for me, at least in my twenties. I was piecing stuff together, had a couple of jobs, had a couple event gigs. Like, it was always the pursuit of that extra thing, but you also, you know, have enough hustles.

It was like a collection of side hustles that felt like enough to kinda make make it by and and establish a life that I wanted that gave me the flexibility to do the things I wanted, go to the shows I wanted, travel home to see my family when I wanted. Right? Like, just kind of that was my thing. From there, then my next question is, well, how did you become an accidental advocate? Well, I was lucky enough.

There's an event in Boulder, and and they have them all around called Ignite. It's a amateur speaking event, and you have five minutes exactly. The slides auto advance every fifteen seconds, so their tagline is enlighten us, but make it quick, which is great. I just like you, like, I can listen to anybody who is passionate talk about anything for five minutes. Right?

And so I went to one of these events and was so inspired. There was this particular guy who was the first speaker to go, and it was a guy that talks about his ups and downs with weight loss. And, like, a, men never talk about that. B, nobody in Boulder talks about that. And he was funny, but honest and just authentic and kinda raw and real and very unpolished, and he evoked this feeling.

Like, it was I feel like it was one of the first times I saw somebody, not in a professional environment where I saw them speak and I, like, physically leaned in. Right? I, like, wanted to hear just this guy. Just everything about this guy was so great to me. And I decided.

I was like, I wanna evoke that feeling. Like, I always public speaking to a certain extent. Right? The high school student government speeches were one of my favorite things. I did a toast at my sister's wedding.

Right? Kind of all of that stuff I I liked. Right? And so I had this flexibility in my life and hadn't you know, I'd been hustling for so long and kinda got to a point where didn't quite have to do that as much anymore and really wanted to dive into it. And so I had this creative opportunity, and and so that was it.

And so I went to that for the first time. But I knew I was gonna have to like, the whole thing that was so great about this guy was that he was passionate about it. Right? So I knew I was gonna have to talk about something that I was passionate about, but it couldn't really be about me. So that was kind of the lens that kind of felt self serving and kinda what was the point, almost like a raise the vibration of the community kind of intent.

And so that was the first public talk I ever did, which was how to not use gay in a pejorative way. Right? So there were so many people in Boulder's a pretty progressive place. There isn't a lot of, like, overt homophobia, but you would hear things. People would say something was gay or it was a way that it was disparaging, but then they'd say, well, I have gay friends, and so I'm not homophobic.

Right? So it was really having people realize the impact of their words. That was kind of the first talk. I got lucky that that caught some traction online, and then the next rung on the ladder was to apply to do a TED talk in Boulder. And I got that, and and that also got some traction.

And then all of a sudden, I went from low of me in Boulder to expert, right, like, overnight because there were so many views. And clearly, that was, to me, why it was an accident. Right? There was no, like, Toastmasters or any this wasn't on my trajectory. It just kinda happened.

So it sounds like after your two thousand fourteen TED Talk, that's when things really started to change? Yeah. It was, you know, all of a sudden you have people that are this how widespread that is. You have folks that are wanting you to speak to their organizations or to their schools and really have that same conversation. Because I think what resonated was that it was maybe seeing it for a different perspective and maybe striving to find commonality before difference, which I think is not the way that a lot of that was explored before that you could make everyone feel safe and feel part of the conversation and make it feel relatable.

And I think that was maybe a direction that people were looking to go. And so all of a sudden, I didn't know what to do. Right? I just had a nine minute speech or whatever that TED talk was. Right?

And then, you know, worked with a good friend of mine who is a coach and developed a keynote, and all of a sudden you're kind of, like, off on this way and figured out. In the beginning, it was a lot of colleges and universities. You know what I mean? It'd be the LGBTQ Alliance or whatever it was. It was doing, an event that they have monthly or quarterly events.

And so that's kind of how it started, and then it moved into conferences accidental label because there was this expectation of knowledge. Right? I kind of rode for about a year the, like, oh, shucks me kinda perspective, which was great. But also if you really wanna make change, I feel like you have to own because to me, it was not I wasn't saying anything that people didn't know. Right?

There's nothing unique about it. It's the same stories and musings that I would have with my buddies at at the bar. Right? Like, none of it. It was just my life.

And how does that not how does that matter. Like, I I always thought it mattered, but how is it impactful. Right? And realizing that that was the case, that there was really this journey to go on and and you kind of have to own your power wherever you are, and that's not based on degrees or expertise. Like, just being an expert of your own journey, I think, qualifies you.

And you've got this book. And in your book, for instance, I have questions about your audience. And you have an anecdote in the book about your Haney man who supported Trump, which I think is kinda telling because a lot of the work we're trying to do on the POC is helping people and supporting people to have difficult conversations with their friends and with their family and with people who may or may not agree with you. And so the questions run from, you know, what is the profile from a political, educational, geographic perspective in terms of the people you're speaking before? I mean, I think it's my content is pretty obvious.

It is very much about my story and my journey and kind of lessons learned through that. But I wouldn't say that it's a wildly progressive audience. I mean, sure, it probably leans that way, but I've spoken for the government and the defense industry and for pharmaceutical companies and at banks. Right? Like, traditionally, more little c conservative organizations, but I think big corporate organizations are seeing the need to bring in speakers who have a different perspective.

Right? And my message has always been bringing people together through these small realizations in their everyday lives that we're just not that different. And and again, a lot of my stories, and I would encourage anybody who's kind of going on journey of curiosity and self discovery and kind of bridging that divide like you talk about, to be curious and to look at the moments not where they're the hero. Right? Like, the story that you refer to in the book, with somebody that I was working with and we were working on some softball field together.

That's one of my family businesses, and we were good friends. And it was in the middle, and, you know, we worked together to put on girls' fast pitch softball tournaments. Right? So females in sports, very empowering. He had daughters.

Like, it was clear we, you know, we might not have voted top to bottom the same way, but it was right when the Access Hollywood tapes came out about Trump and how disparaging he was to women. And in my head, no one that could be involved in what we did. Right? Encouraging women to find power and self confidence and all the things to do through sport could ever vote for somebody like that. Right?

And as part of the conversation, we were in rural West Virginia where we held the event, and, you know, he's like, I don't care what he says. If he's saying like, this guy lost his job, you know, in the mines that were there, was working at a retail store, you know, was gonna pay for his kid's college and had gone through his entire savings just to be able to keep his house. Right? And so the promises and we could debate on if those promises were real or not. But to him, it was the only person who was listening.

It was the only person who was actually gonna do something about his problem. Right? So that's how he was gonna vote, and he was the one that was brave in that moment. Right? He could have not said anything.

It's the moment when you do that scary thing when you say I mean, in the power dynamic, I would have said we were probably equals, but it wasn't without controversy, and he wasn't criticizing me. Right? He was just saying how he got to where he got to, and it wasn't all of the things that I thought. Like, he loved me. He was excited when I was getting married.

Right? He was close to my family. And I'd send him pictures of my kids when they were born. Like, this is someone that was not homophobic or misogynistic in any way, but he was making a decision based on other reasons. And I think being curious to get to somebody else's why and to see the humanity behind why they think what they think is, like, a tremendous first step in just starting to bridge that gap.

But it it starts with our openness, right, and our willingness and our our desire to go into the conversation, not wanting to change somebody's mind, but just trying to understand them better. Like, when we go in with with our agenda, that's disingenuous, so we're not really gonna get to where we wanna go to me. So you speak in front of these different groups. I mean, do you see different reactions coming from conservatives versus liberals when you speak in front of them? Usually, by the end of the conversation, and it's people usually, it's within a corporate environment.

Right? And so people, I think, are maybe muted in their extreme things that they go to. I think I don't know if any of my stuff has ever been mandatory. It's probably been highly recommended. Right?

But I think there might be folks that feel like going to inclusion training is checking a box. Right? It's a thing they need to do because it's what they're supposed to do, and it looks worse if you're not there than if you're there. Right? But I honestly believe when we get in and we start having these conversations and it isn't, you know, somebody on a soapbox wagging your finger of how you didn't do it right or, like, the politically correct police or here's flashcards for 56 genders that you have to memorize by a week from Thursday.

Right? Like, that's not what we're doing. We're trying to have conversations, and we can't I just had this conversation yesterday with a friend of mine. Like, we can't be inclusive by being exclusive. I think there's a difference between creating safe spaces, right, where people can fully be themselves and and if they feel like there's a a threat.

Right? Like, there it's like essentially the gay bar. Right? Like, you went there because it was a place that was safe. And I think those places are important.

Right? And I also think brave spaces are important where people can have these conversations. When you create these guardrails of respect and dialogue and, you know, fact checking to a certain extent and curiosity and lack of judgment. Right? That when you create brave spaces, that's when you're having these conversations where you're moving people forward, where we can walk out disagreeing, but I understand you better.

I see you more as a human by the time we're done. Like, we're in a better place. And to think that any of these challenges that we're facing, any of this political divide is gonna be somebody is just gonna walk into a room and have a fifteen minute conversation and the light bulb's gonna pop on and everything they've thought in their previous twenty, thirty, forty, sixty years is gonna be gone is absurd. Right? It's a dialogue.

It's a conversation. It evolves, and you don't have to agree with me to respect me, and I don't have to agree with you. Right? That's the best thing about empathy. Right?

I don't have to agree with you to be empathetic towards you. I just have to be willing to know what it's like to walk in your shoes. And if I can do that, I mean, who can I not be empathetic towards? How can I not see that people are not ignorant, and they're not arbitrary, and they're not dumb, and they're not uneducated, and they're not wildly progressive, and they're not out of touch? Right?

They've had their own human experience, and that human experience has led them there. And the more they know, the better they'll understand the broader world, and that's for both sides to me. That is not directed at a singular side. Are you finding that in these discussions, you talk about creating this brave space. Are you finding that people are digging deep and finding their courage?

And what has been your experience in having these difficult conversations? I think the most important thing is that you have well respected leaders that are willing to kind of do this publicly. Right? So there's a a couple organizations that have public hard conversations. So there'll be a topic that's in the news, and they will bring in senior leaders that will sit on a stage, virtual or otherwise.

Right? And they will have these conversations. It was in the wake of George Floyd that started at a lot of organizations I work with. It's hard and you don't know, and it's okay to say that you don't know, but these are the two perspectives. And, again, you have this foundation of trust, respect, understanding, curiosity, all of these things that create this space.

But you can't expect that to happen throughout the organization because there's a certain vulnerability. There's a vulnerability to coming and potentially saying the wrong thing of admitting that you don't know the answers, of stepping into a hard conversation that's inevitably vulnerable. And I think sometimes leaders think that they need to isolate themselves from that because their risk is too great when what really matters is being that brave show gives permission to the other people in the organization to do the same thing. And, again, you have, like, mutual consenting parties that are willing to be there. That doesn't mean that everybody that I can go into you know, somebody can come into my cube and because I'm gay, all of a sudden wanna know all the things about gay people.

Right? Like, we start with a level of trust and understanding that has nothing to do with how we're different, but more how we're similar. Right? So you have two consenting parties that really truly want to get better and be more educated and have a better understanding, and you do that and you see the stumbles and you see the awkwardness and you see it in a way that it's harder, but it's not impossible, and that you're better on the other side of it. Right?

And, again, it leads that following conversation because I think what's so important is that I don't want somebody to like, if somebody's gonna come in and ask me a question of, you know, somebody that has maybe doesn't see why there should be specific rights for LGBTQ people or why LGBTQ or trans kids should be protected in schools. Right? If you don't understand that, I wanna have a conversation with you to get you to start to understand it. And the next time something happens in the news or something happens at your kid's school, I wanna have that conversation. Right?

These are like conversations that happen over and over and over that we can come knowing we're bringing our best intentions that we just wanna understand each other a little bit better. And again, it doesn't mean that somebody's gonna flip sides or change their mind. I mean, if somebody is so set on their ideas that they're unwilling to discuss them with somebody else because they might change their mind, I feel like that's something that we'd need to explore. And I'm not going in shooting holes in what you're thinking. I'm just telling you my perspective.

And I'm and more than anything, I'm listening to yours. So as we're trying to understand other people's perspectives, and you're in these environments where people are being encouraged to come hear your perspective, how does the college versus non college divide come in? Because we're hearing a lot that, from a polling perspective, that there's a real divide between those that go to college and those that don't go to college in terms of perspective and fear of the other and so forth. In these groups you're talking to, are you still dealing with the self selected group of people that are mostly college educated? And so in terms of getting through to them and getting them to ask these questions, there's can be progress.

But is it expanding to the, quote, other universe of people that, for instance, don't go to university? Yeah. One organization that I work with that has done this really, really well is in aerospace defense, and they have really been intentional knowing that the way that you present content, the availability of meetings, that there is they have a divide which often follows the same divide that you're talking about that are the folks that work on the line, right, that work on the floor and the folks that work in admin. And that was absolutely exponentially raised during COVID because there were people that were still coming into the office and still coming into the plant and doing the things, and the admin could be at home. Right?

And so not only you're creating the thirty minute lunchtime affinity group meetup, well, if that doesn't coincide with the line, then it doesn't, what are you doing? Right? Like you're you're leaving out at no wonder people don't feel included, that they're not gonna get paid for that time. Right. Like, of course they're not.

Like, there isn't a one size fits all. So this idea of this constant assessment of who are we leaving out? Who is this not accessible to, in a thousand ways based on what time zone they're in, based on physical disabilities, based on, you know, that they can't openly attend a meeting like that for fear of retribution, That the break isn't when they're on the line or that their break is twenty five minutes and the meeting is forty five. Right? Like, we can't just assume because people aren't participating that they don't want to.

We have to do self assessments to see who we're leaving behind. And so I think when you do it that well and also that you have people, other organizations, the rural production plant in the Southeast is not gonna have the same level of understanding perhaps or need or desire or is gonna even want the same inclusion training that the corporate big city headquarters department does. And that's no one's fault. We can present it one way, but it just isn't a it isn't a one size fits all situation. So the best organizations are listening to what people want in the field, for lack of a better word, right, that are outside of that corporate structure and saying, okay.

How can we do this better for you? Do we do it twice a month for twenty minutes? Or you can do it on 15 because that's what your break cycle is. Right? Like how do we record it and you can look at it later?

What are we doing to make sure this is open to everyone? So I feel like there is that divide, but if you can really step into it and understand it, it makes sense. And the case that you're presenting, why inclusion matters when you feel like inclusion means you're excluded, that it's a pie and it's by definition less for you, if it takes this other turn, that is a real threat that we need to acknowledge and have conversations about. Right? That is a different lens.

It isn't, again, like, we're doing diversity, equity, and inclusion. We have to have diverse ways to approach it. It isn't always gonna be, you know, equal is not equity. Two totally different things. And the inclusion part, we have to include everyone, and there's different ways to do it.

And it takes more work, but the outcomes are so much better. Right. Well and, obviously, the advantage of a TED Talk is that anyone can come and listen to it regardless of background, assuming they're they're on the Internet. Whereas, again, in the corporate world, there really still can be this tendency of echo chambers. And and as you're pointing out, there are different classes of employees.

And if they're not all coming together and mixing or if one side's treated differently than the other, then it may make us feel good, but we're not actually, you know, working to get out of our echo chambers and and mix with other people. Exactly. And you have to have again, there I was speaking somewhere, and we were talking about privilege and, you know, it's the thing that you don't think about. So you walk into a room and you don't think about where the ramp is. Right?

Like, you just walk up the stairs and you don't think about it. The things that you don't think about, you know, I walk down the street holding my wife's hand and kind of have to do an assessment of if that's okay. Right? I don't expect you to know that if you've never gone through that, but if I can tell you my story. Right?

So there's a privilege that exists in that way. But I think there was a somebody who was working one of the events that I did at a university, and he said, you know, I am a fourth generation. We are in rural North Carolina. Fourth generation. I'm the first one to go to college.

First one to not work in the fields. Right? And he was a white cisgendered straight, presumably straight male. Right? Like, I'm up to my eyeballs in debt trying to make this happen.

I'm working three jobs to get through school. How are you gonna sit here and tell me I have privilege? We have to be able to have that conversation. We can't just say that that conversation is worth having or that's not real or he is ignorant. Right?

That is his human experience. It is undeniable. Sure. You can explain to him about the ways that he does have privilege. Right?

But socioeconomic privilege is something that he doesn't have. Generational wealth is something that he does not have. Right? So how do we have these conversations with people and have them bring their real concerns and their pushback to this and not disregard them as, you know, whatever kind of trope we wanna put on, that that they're not woke enough, that they're ignorant, that they don't wanna be part of the problem, that they're white supremacists, that they're homophobic, that they're racist, that they're whatever. Right?

Like, when we are confronted with that, which is a real challenge of theirs, and we push back that that is invalid, of course, they feel excluded. Right. We're not doing our work. So in step up, you you've come up with eight pillars, and they seem to exist within a long tradition of values or or habits, or if we wanna go a religious route, commandments. And there's the book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People that Stephen Covey wrote.

You know, he talks about these different values, but he doesn't use the g word. Your pillars do seem to echo some religiously based concepts, and yet you do see a lot of seemingly religious people not modeling these behaviors. I guess my question is how do you reconcile these two things? Well, I think that, you know, there are some moral guidelines that are universal. Right?

If you look through a variety of religious texts, like, there are religious guidelines that are universal. I think that that it's just how to be a good person. Right? And if we go to our most core rooted level, the vast majority of us agree on what that means. And then we start to change it up or we make exceptions or we do whatever, and that and that's fine.

I think everybody has their own kind of self determination in pursuit of that. I would say that I always try to look at people with the best possible intention. Right? And and, again, try to figure out why they're getting there. I would never, you know, want to limit what I refer to as those pillars that there is any need to believe in anything of spirituality.

Like, the lens of that is everybody from, you know, the Fortune one hundred CEO to the bench warmer on the seventh grade soccer team. Right? The idea is that you can lead where you are and that you have that self determination and that there is some subjectiveness to any of those. Right? Like, what is grace?

I don't think there's a universal definition from that. I think there's some guidelines. I think, again, it isn't a straight and narrow. It's not a tight rope. It's more of a lane, and 90% of humanity is pretty clear on what that is.

Right? And as long as we're not manipulating that to justify some self interest that is harmful to others, then I think we're on the right we can be in our lane. My wife is way kinder than I am. She is way more compassionate. She is way more humble.

Right? Like, you're there's some things you're really, really good at that you're stronger in that realm. But the idea of the eight pillars for me was that any situation is gonna require certain things. Right? It's kinda like a recipe.

It's like what they say, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But if you've got a whole tool belt full of stuff, you can assess the situation and say, how can I be the best version of myself? Do I need a lot of courage? Maybe a little bit of humility, but I also need to take responsibility? Awesome.

Great. But this one, fully humble and a lot of grace. Not every situation is the same. We need to be dynamic enough as leaders to approach the situation in the best possible way. That makes sense.

But as a leader, what is your history and your relationship to faith? You know, I grew up in both my parents were Catholic. My father more so than my mom, he went to Catholic education. And then when we got to be a certain age, we never kinda they wanted us to be able to make the choices. We grew up in Toledo, Ohio, so holy Toledo is the name of it.

We have a lot of churches. But we also had a lot of friends. My sister went to the JCC for preschool there, Jewish community center. Had a lot of friends that were Jewish, and they just wanted us to make our own decisions around that. And neither my sister or I kind of followed any formal religion.

Both of us are quite spiritual. And I think it was there was a stretch that was challenging. My dad, an important even he was like a Christmas and Easter Catholic, but it was really important to him. You know, it was like an annoyance as a kid because you couldn't do that. You couldn't, like, get community.

You couldn't, like, do the things. You know, you just stood up and sat down a lot. But it was important to my dad, so it was something that we did. But then when I came out, and this is, you know, nineties probably, early, and where the Catholic church was on that, like, it truly felt physically unsafe to me and, you know, emotionally unsafe. Right?

But my dad couldn't see it like that. He saw it as spirituality, not as Catholicism. It was just the only structured version of it that he knew. And eventually, you know, through enough conversations, we switched which church we went to for Christmas because I had a conversation with them that I I didn't feel comfortable. This is what they think.

And is that okay? And it and it took a while for him to kind of reconcile that. And then we went to Universal Unitarian Church, and it was you know, it wasn't the same. It was, like, a much about the tradition. So I don't know.

I it's blind faith is a red flag for me, I guess, not because of how I see the person, but more in my concern of how the person judges me. And now that I have kids, how they judge my family. That's, I guess, my relationship to it right now, but I think there are a lot of people, people that I'm close to, people that are doing great work out there that are really trying to bring that together, that are accepting of all people that read the bible in a way that seems more loving and accepting. And I think that that is is a struggle, but such great work for people to do. You're covering a lot of very, very complex stuff.

I mean, the relation with your your parents, your father, the Catholic church, faith. These are conversations that Americans are trying to have, and they're difficult conversations. One of the the terms that AA throws out is a higher power, for instance. Mhmm. In terms of your work and talking about spirituality, is there any role for a higher power?

And if so, how does that inform your work? Let's see. It is less a singular entity that kinda runs the show, but I think it's evolved for me specifically when my dad passed. You know, we were extremely close, and that was hard for me. And I think, like, anybody you but I I didn't, like, kind of look to a religion for that.

To me, it's more energy exists, and there are things that are too significant to be coincidence, and I would never expect or convince anyone else to believe that. But for me to stay close to him, I try to stay open to, you know, the random song that comes on the radio or certain moments when he's around. I, you know, I have like a gratitude practice daily where I just kinda say, hey. And I feel like my relationship to spirituality in that way is it makes me feel better when I do that. And if he can hear me, great.

And if he can't, I still feel better that he does. You know, I kind of take it as a if it is a a fiction, it makes me feel better here. It has kind of turned into my, yeah, my my version, I guess, of it to a certain extent. So it's it sounds like your father was a big part of your life and still a big part of your life. Yep.

And what was it like having these conversations with him initially when you were first starting out in the nineties and coming out? I mean, how did you work all that through? We my dad and I are very, very similar. And my dad, growing up Catholic, like, had always hurt homosexuality is wrong. That's, like, all he knew.

It was just wrong. That was it, period. He didn't really care that I was gay. He was worried about, you know, if that would be hard on me, but he just needed to reconcile it. And my mom, you know, was in fashion and was an entrepreneur and had gay friends and all of those things.

And so she was fine with gay people. She was just worried about her pitch. It was like a mama bear thing for her. So them reconciling that was important, but my dad kind of dove in to see like, he went to the Christian bookstore and, like, got all the anti gay books to read him. Like, he wanted all of the information.

He wanted to know, and I was like, dad, what the you know? It's just like, I came I lived away, but came home, and it was, like, on his nightstand table. And I was like, oh my god, dad. What's going on? And he's like, well, Ashley, you gotta know what the other side thinks.

Like, you just have to know. It was like this idea of he was going to be as prepared for an argument as he possibly could have been. And he was the first one even when I you know, we so we ran the softball business together, and I didn't I didn't want to negatively affect the business. We had a lot of kinda and, again, this was fifteen years ago. But there's a lot of teams from Midwestern Rust Belt states.

I didn't want it to affect our business. And my dad was just like a rip the band aid off kinda guy. Like, the summer that I was engaged, he would tell anyone that would listen and even people that wouldn't. Hey. You know, Ashley's getting married.

Right? And I was like, oh my god, dad. You can't just I was just, like, outing me to all of these people, and it was never it was always better than I thought, but it, like, showed me the incredible power of allyship and his ability to talk through what those struggles were like because somebody could relate to him. There's a dad, there's a coach, there's somebody who's like, you probably thought what I think, but here's how I got here. And my dad who is incredibly, like, a passionate, loving man, he, like, showed his emotions very well, but he would say, you know, I don't I mean, it's like his typical line was like, you know, I didn't really know.

I didn't really get it at first, but you see your kid with somebody, you see him that happy, and you just figure it all out. Right? So you have these, like, other men, you know, and just like plant a seed and they would walk away. And I don't know, like, did they have gay kids? Right.

Maybe. But all of a sudden you have this, like, extension of allyship of, like, it's okay to struggle and here's how I get here. Here are the things that matter to me. And it was never he was never advocating. Right?

Like, I think there's a difference between advocating, which I think is important, and also just kind of you don't have to be an advocate to be an ally. There's a thousand ways to ally, and I think those conversations were what that happened. And and so in the beginning, you know, it was it was hard and we slammed a lot of doors and yelled a lot, but we always kept talking. And I always, prior to this, had a great relationship with my parents, but I remember going to my dad and being like that, I you know, I love you. And the last thing I would ever wanna do is, like, upend the ship of our family, but, like, I will walk away from our family for this.

And, like, of course, you didn't wanna hear that. And you don't know. You think you're, like, kids in love. You do, like, blow it off, whatever. But I it landed with him of, like, this is it.

And there was some time of some pretty significant separation or just not, I think, having the relationship that we had always had, and then we started to get closer and closer. And then they saw me with somebody the first time, and it was uncomfortable, and it was awkward, and it was all of the things. And it was better because they saw their kid happy, like, truly happy. Like, everything made sense at that point. So it sounds like his heart opened up, and he was able to change the perspective from it just being his daughter to understanding that this is a universal issue that other people are dealing with.

I mean, did he change his perspective? I mean, did you see him like, after the door slammed and you yeah. As you were rebuilding your relationship, how did his worldview change? His opinion, I would say, was that it doesn't matter. Like, previously, it was something that I was con I was like apathy.

It was weird to have a conversation around sexuality with your parents because it involves sex, and that's weird. In the time frame that I grew up in and probably still to this day, like, it was never about that was inevitably part of it. Right. But I think he kind of centered on love is love. Like, love matters.

Sure. And I want you to be happy, and I want you my parents were high school sweethearts. Right? Like, if you find somebody and it like, I'm not gonna stop you from being in love. It just made sense.

So, yeah, I think his his heart opened and then his perspective took a one eighty to the point where it didn't any I mean, he had his own challenges with Catholicism before that, and this pretty much kind of closed that or the idea that I couldn't get married. Like, it was the personalization of it. Right? We're at my sister's wedding, and at that point when she got married, I couldn't legally get married. That was like an equity thing for him.

He was like, that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense that you can't get married. Like, that's absurd to me because he saw my fiance at that point and oh, I I mean, not when my sister got married, but saw my wife, Lacey, before we were married and my brother-in-law as the same. It was, like, the same thing. And, like, he just had to, like, get it in the Excel spreadsheet in his head.

It had to, like, figure out. And then after that, it was, like, inarguable to him. It just didn't make sense. When you talk about people coming out of the closet they're in and in your book, you talk about that we're all in a closet. It's always easy when somebody comes to you and apologizes or just changes their position.

But even with someone like your father who you love, it presumably took courage on your part to stick with it and to have those difficult conversations. What is, do you think, your secret that for those people that are really, really carrying around fear, whatever that issue is, that they're not able to come out of their closet and share it with the other person. What do you think helped you develop the courage to be able to have these difficult conversations? Well, I think part of it was how much the relationship meant to me, right? I think that there was a kind of a a baseline of that for sure.

But then I also think a critical piece is that, you know, it took me years before I was willing to admit to myself in the mirror that I was gay. Years, right, to expect that I'm going to come in and tell my parents that all of a sudden the world that they thought was happening for the last twenty years at that point is out the window and expect them to be like, oh, that's fine. Like, that's the most unrealistic I expect. It took me years, crying, conversations, heartbreak, all of the things to be able to do it. And some parents probably that's fine, or they had suspicions or whatever.

Like, that's not where my parents were in the eighties, so that's not where we were. To think that they're just gonna like all of a sudden two hours later hang a rainbow flag, Like, that's an absurd ask, I think. There's an empathy and a willingness to be a resource, to have these awkward, like, real awkward conversations. Whether it's about sex, whether it's about whatever. My dad was really afraid of the AIDS pandemic for me, and I was like, okay, dad.

Like, you'd it's people aren't gonna say it perfectly. It's probably not gonna be politically correct. But if he's asking me questions, we're moving in the right direction. Right? I had a family friend that was, like, would call my whoever I was dating at the time, I either wouldn't call them my girlfriend, would call them, like, my lover or my special friend, like, this very seventies porno is what it felt like to me, But, like, at least they were asking.

They could have just ignored the question whatsoever. And so, like, to me, we, as the people going through this, that is a version of advocacy is just to stick in the conversation, to trust their best intention, to know that that was, like, how this aunt knew how to address what she didn't understand about my life, but she still wanted to know. Like, that is brave. You don't have to do it right to be brave. And so same with my dad.

Like, it would be awkward and weird and uncomfortable, and I wouldn't have all the time, but we were talking, and the alternative is he doesn't bring it to me. And I I would love to be part of that journey with him, right, of his understanding, to give him that perspective, to humanize what I was going through, to be be that trusted resource, that you're never gonna ask me anything, that I'm not gonna answer you. I might tell you later that certain phrases that you use are maybe not right, you know, and like if you say it to somebody else, maybe frame it in a different way, right, it can be constructive, but to like like, sometimes you get to choose your allies and sometimes your allies pick you, and who are we to say who can't be part of this movement? That is insane to me that we would say anyone with the best intentions isn't worth our time to level up with them. You know, as you're talking about this, there's a book I read on grit.

And as you're talking about this and the courage and the years that it took for you to deal with these issues, it's funny to me when I hear people talk about now. Like, if I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat and I'm in a group with people of the other party, I'm afraid to speak up and say, I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat. And it's like they're literally afraid to bring it up. When you're dealing with issues like this where we have all these societal issues that we've dealt with for thousands of years and you're dealing with the courage to work on these relations and have these amazing conversations, what do you say to people that are afraid to even talk about their politics because they think the world's gonna come to an end? Well, I acknowledge that that is a real fear.

You know, I think cancel culture has really I mean, I that has paralyzed so many people because you think that you say the wrong thing one time, and then it's gonna stop your career. It's gonna end your friendships. Right? And so I think that that's part of it. I think that you don't have to jump into the most divisive conversation in the world, right?

Like that's not where we're starting. I don't think we start with, you know, whatever whatever the hot topic is right now. Like that's not our entry point. We start to have awkward conversations, uncomfortable conversations. That's like the thing for the book too is why it's called Step Up.

Like, nobody's asking you to scale a mountain. It's incremental. And you do the one thing that feels scary, and it turns out okay, and you learn some lessons, and then that ceiling becomes your floor, and then you take the next step and the next step and the next step. It is incremental because that's how we do it genuinely. So the idea is to be just a little bit more brave, a little bit more brave and know that the people in the room, like, you can only choose how you react.

Right? So if you raise your hand and self identify, it comes in the context of, well, this is why I think these things, right? Or ask if you're in a a room of people that are the opposite, well, why are you a Democrat? There's no judgment. I'm just curious as to why are you tied to that, Right?

I think there's this curiosity. And also, I think you start to have these difficult conversations, maybe not in a room of Republicans, but your brother-in-law who's in a who's in a different party. Right? These trusted relationships where you can actually have this conversation and go in saying, this is really hard and awkward for me, but I'm trying to get better and I wanna understand more, and this is how I identify and can you know what I mean? That it's that.

It's not that, like, flying out of the, you know, GOP closet in in an area at some kid's birthday party where everybody's a you know, the kid with two dads birthday party. You know what I mean? Like, you you have to understand the room, but I think you develop they always say, you know, it gets better. And I love the Trevor Project and that was always our thing, right? It gets better.

And that's what you wanna tell kids, like, you just have to get to this point where it gets better. And I agree with that. But I don't know about you, but you look at where we are right now, I don't see the world getting better. So our only other option is that we get stronger. Right?

Like, it isn't about it. It's about us. So it may or may not get better. We can get better. We can get stronger.

We can have more resilience. We can just stick in the awkward conversation a little bit longer. Like, that's another strategy. Right? Like, when the conversation gets awkward, we freeze up or we get out or we it's so uncomfortable and we have to walk away.

How do we sit? How do we ask one more question? We have to, like, go down some rabbit hole or inflame everybody. Right? Just like one just one more question.

To be the one that's willing, you build up your tolerance. It's like if you fold your hands. Right? If you'd, like, fold them in front of you and then you fold them the opposite way, it feels so awkward until you do it enough. And it's not that it's any different, it's just the way you've always done it.

Right? So we have to kind of rewire our brains to be willing to that awkward moment, that awkward pause, that awkward conversation, that awkward question that we're gonna make it through. Like, that's not a real threat. It's nothing's on fire around us. Right?

It's just uncomfortable. And I think our problem societally is we are incredibly unwilling to be uncomfortable, any of us. A lot of people are uncomfortable in this society with pain or discomfort, and it seems to me at least that discomfort is inherent in growth. And there's a concept that I read about that talks about they tolerate discomfort for growth. But we are also in this society that is very pain avoidant.

How do you encourage people to tolerate pain for this growth? Well, I think you have to have that long view. Right? It's bigger than this moment. I mean, at least that's what I've tried to learn in parenting.

Right? Is it isn't about this moment. We are trying to improve ourselves. You're like doing it. You're enduring that pain in the same way you train for a marathon or a five k or whatever you do.

Right? Like, you don't do it for now because now sucks. You do it for who you're gonna be in a month or six months or a year or the next time that same challenge comes up. You do it for the future you. That's the whole point.

Right? So it's worth it because the you on the other side. Right? There's that kids book, you know, the bear hunt. Right?

You can't go over it. You can't go under it. You can't go run it. You gotta go through it. Like, that's what we're all doing right now.

I mean, you can avoid it to a certain extent, but the fastest way is gonna be through it, and you will be surprised how often you come out unscathed, right? Like, there'll be a couple of nicks. You'll have sore muscles, like, all the things, but you're stronger on the other side. So I think that's the reason. And also, no one is asking you to tolerate a pain of 10 if your current level is a point five.

Right? You, like, ease into that. You have to be willing to play the long game in the same way that you do it with, whatever, weight loss or training programs or any of that stuff. Right? Like, it doesn't happen overnight.

It can. It isn't sustainable. If you're looking for sustainable growth, it has to be incremental, and you give your body the ability to recover. You don't have to fight every fight. You just have to be conscious.

You have to choose when you're gonna respond. Right? Not a reaction, but a response. Like, how are you going to be the best version of yourself? And you make those little changes, you know, you it's like if you have a boat that leaves the shore and you change the path that it's on by one or 2%, right, this gradual change, where it ends up hundreds of miles later is vastly different.

But it was that slight tack that made the difference. And I think that's the same thing with this. Right? We do these small things that are that are tangible, that we can see the real results from, that we get the positive reaction from, and then we do the next hard thing and the next hard thing and the next next hard thing. And all of a sudden, you're getting to the point where that thing that seemed impossible seems possible.

Well, in this world where we are more polarized than we've been, and you're having these difficult conversations, how do you in this environment, stay hopeful? I think that there is hope that the vast majority of people that I interact with want a better world, right? That is a common hope, a common goal. What a better world looks like, I think, is probably individual, but generally, we want to be better. We want to be braver.

We want to have hard conversations. People don't have the tools to do it, but if the want is there, we can figure out the tools. We can personalize the tools. We can try different things, like but you have to have that desire. I haven't been to the point yet where I've seen even a small minority of people that want it to be like it is.

Like, you just you you don't. So how do we get there? Right? And I think, again, having that common end goal gives me hope that we can if we can make people feel part of the conversation, make them feel part of the solution, validate their perspective and experience, right, and have people actually be heard regardless if they agree or disagree with us, regardless of their perspective, right, that there's room at the table for everybody, that gives me hope that we can figure this out together. Yeah.

This is something that I wrestle with, which is that I don't go to the other side's rallies, but I do listen to them. I try to understand it. I'm also college educated, and we've created this society where where we really are separated. Mhmm. It seems to me that one of the things that's missing is that safe place where truly opposite groups of people can come together.

And I I don't know if you're experiencing that or you're seeing the mixture of people, but it it seems like that's still not happening enough. Yeah. It feels to me like there's a handful of places where that happens. At least it's more diverse than the group I self select into. Right?

So it's more diverse than my friend group, but, like, public schools are one of them. I think sports teams' fan bases. Right? Like, there is some commonality around people that root for a team or an organization. And I'm like, love sports, sports background.

My kids are into sports. Like, I get that. But, you know, we went to a minor league hockey game recently in a suburb that is historically more conservative than ours. I don't know. There's, like, something about that mutual like, everything's pointed in the same direction even if it's just for that moment.

Right? So it's the person next to me. It's that humanity. Right? And I'm not gonna sit down have a conversation on the other side of my son with somebody about what they think about some of the state amendments that are up.

Right? Like, that's not the conversation we're having. It makes you realize I think you have to have an awareness of how isolated you are and that you are self selecting into those echo chambers and that you have a responsibility to not. Right? And I think you start with those initial conversations and you have to build trust.

You can't go in and seek out friends of a different color because that's what they are or gay friends, so you have a gay resource. Right? Like, you have to build friendships, you know? So I think that that's part of it. So I think you you have to insert yourself into that because you get to know people that have that different perspective as humans, and maybe that gets you to why they have the perspective, and then maybe you can tap into the conversation a little bit better.

Yeah. It makes sense. You talk about sports. It's a it's a natural place for people to come together and then look what just happened with the Super Bowl. Right.

You know, when the Super Bowl becomes polarized Yeah. It was a reminder to me of just kinda how extreme this has gotten. Yeah. And I think there's a piece of it, obviously, and I'm, like, not a conspiracy theory person, and this is a new conspiracy theory. But, like, the only reason we are so divided is that people are making money dividing us, honestly.

Yep. That's it. And I think any of us can see that. Ashley, I think both sides do it too, but it's it's interesting. When you talk to people on either side, they don't.

You know, 80% of people feel the other side is an existential threat. And as you said, the algorithms and the way these businesses are set up, they make money making us afraid and angry. And until we take action and get that and turn the channel and recognize that we've gotta do the work to come out with a more balanced approach, we're we're gonna continue to have a real problem. Yeah. I agree.

And I feel like it just gets exacerbated. I mean, the election year, it's the worst. Yeah. And all of the things and all of the lines in the sand and all of it is just it's crazy to me. There was, like, whatever that study was recently that the algorithms on social media are made to people are more interactive when they're more inflamed about something or more enraged.

Right? So you just kind of you keep posting, so you interact more when you're mad. Like, we have based an entire economy on being pissed. Like, no wonder everybody's so mad. It's what we're consuming all the time.

Yeah. How do we have these, like, better conversations? Like, I don't think it's fair to watch Fox News and think that's what an average Republican thinks. In the same way, I don't think it's fair to watch MSNBC, and I wouldn't want anyone to think unequivocally that that's what I think. Right?

It's that, like, weird bell curve thing. Like, we're all in the middle, but we're pulled in this way, and these options seem so they're they're just so far apart. Like, where has the center gone? Yeah. We talk about it a lot.

I mean, the silent majority needs to get reengaged. We have to create the platforms and the places to go to have these safe discussions. And I think it's wonderful what you're doing. It's courageous. It's inspiring and hopeful.

And, Ash, thanks for your time today. Yeah. I loved it. It was a really a really great conversation. Thanks for diving into those things that feel a little bit sticky.

I mean, maybe, hopefully, listeners will dip their toe in that a little bit. Have a wonderful, wonderful day. Absolutely. The Puck Venture Cap and Beyond is produced by CMG advisors. If you enjoyed the conversation today and haven't yet subscribed to our show, you can find us on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, and SoundCloud.

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