Devin Sean Moss

Welcome to the Puck Venture Capital and Beyond, the show that examines the changing landscape of our world. We'll have candid conversations with VCs, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders grappling with our current challenges and providing solutions to key problems we face as a nation. I'm Jim Beer, president of CMBG Advisors. This podcast brings change makers to the table to discover the inner workings behind their decision making strategies and ultimately how they got to where they are today. Everything in our outside world is saying limitless, limitless, limitless.

Everything is limitless. Growth, growth. Everybody's a superstar. You can be anything you wanna be. Sure, that may be true to a certain extent, but the ability to say, all right, if life the average life is four thousand weeks, that's a limited number.

And how do I manage the limit? On today's episode of the Puck, I have a fascinating discussion with Devon Sean Moss, a humanist chaplain, and award winning podcast showrunner, writer, and director whose podcasts include the Black Kitchen series and the Adventures of Memento Mori. We explore the journey he navigates with those at the end of life, his views on the pathway of doubt and faith and belief in humanity, and his commitment to expanding the experience of the present moment. Well, Devin, welcome to the Puck. Really looking forward to this today.

And before we jump in, can you just take a moment and give us a little bit about your background? Sure. Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

My background. Wow. I am, I think, by trade or by education, a media guy. I have a degree in film. And through this adventure in a podcast that I started way back in 2015, I went on a spiritual journey that has taken me to a new vocation, which I think we'll talk a bit about today, which is a as a non theist chaplain.

And so essentially from the I won't say the beginning of the pandemic, but that but that parallels into my grad school and my experience, becoming a chaplain. So since then, I have been working both as a podcast producer and a spiritual, care advisor that has most recently taken me to be the chaplain, spiritual care advisor for Philip Hancock, who was a man executed on death row last November. Well and I remember hearing about that and I remember reading also the New York Times article that was written about your experience there. One of the things that I believe is the case in our society is that death is often considered taboo. Was there a defining moment in your life that ignited your passion to discuss and address end of life experiences?

It's interesting, right? Because there's there's not a moment of like grief or someone close to me that died that made me dig into this topic. I would probably say, I was born with an existential crisis. So I've always been, from my earliest memory, been in pursuit of curiosity and answering the question of of why. Right?

And not only why do we exist, but why do we we being humans in particular, why do we do the things that we do that so often doesn't make sense and so often is not in our own best interest? And so I guess I was a white kid and now I'm a white guy. And I think I don't know when it happened, so I don't remember if there being a spark, but I do think how a person and how a culture lives is a direct how they die is a direct mirror of how they live. And so I've just been endlessly curious about how we face our mortality and then all the underlining things about it. And so as I talk, I'm kind of getting into this my answer, which would be I think it was Ernest Becker's book The Denial of Death, which I tripped upon and probably took me a few years to read because of its its density.

But I think that was a was a clicking moment of being like, oh, this may be why we do the things that we do is that we're always struggling with the terror of mortality. So as as we're dealing with the terror of mortality and given your unique experiences, how would you say, like, your work intersects with kind of the end of life and grief conversation? And also, can you give us, like, a preview of what you're talking about when you talk about the end well stage? Yeah. So, I mean, death is hard, and it's and it's never easy.

So I just want to preface everything that I say is is that none of this is to make it the fear of dying or the grief that comes with someone close to us that has died any less painful. It's really how to be better at being comfortable in the discomfort of it. Because, spoiler alert, we all will have to go through it. We all are going to go through it. Right?

I think, you know and I don't mean this to be morbid or alertist, but, you know, everyone we know will die. And so how do we live with that fact? And ultimately, how do we live well with that fact? And then to your question, how do we how do we die well? So confronting mortality isn't isn't a panacea for grief.

What it does do is that that by facing it, it expands you and it keeps you in the present moment and it helps you to address the things that need to be addressed. It helps you actually to dive deeper in connection with those that you love. And I think that's that's the important part to remember when when contemplating mortality and grief in particular is that it's okay. You're going to feel it. How can you feel it in the most expansive way possible?

Right. And I I think just I have a a saying, you know, like taxes and ear hair avoiding it doesn't make it go away. It just makes it worse. And I think that that pertains to to death in particular, particularly our own. And the question of of dying well is we have this predisposed and we like to say it's a modern aspect of society but I don't even know if that's true.

I think it's a it is a evolutionary tool that we want to stay alive as long as possible. And with that comes the notion of fight and I will fight this. And so there's this grasping that happens onto to life. And and when it comes to particularly when we are either permanently ill or at the end of our natural life, we're expanding our life but increasing the pain of it. So if one can psychologically come to terms with their impermanence then that allows for them to die well.

Again, these are these are talking perfect case scenarios, and I understand that that many people do not have the opportunity to die well or bad. I just want to acknowledge that. But those of us that that make it to bedside, dying well means to wrestle with it in a way that makes sense, but also to be in recognition of reality. And it's knowing when you've reached the threshold of the idea of of hope. Hope can be a magic thing.

Hope can also be a poison. And so so the more pre work, the more wrestling, the more facing uncomfortable situations we do prior to that moment the better we're going to die. And I think that's useful not only for the dying person but I think it's also that self leadership provides a bit of comfort to those around you, right? So just imagine this that you have come we'll just say come to terms or or you recognize where you are in your in your dying process. You've wrestled with it.

You know that the end is nigh. Those around you that are witnessing this are going to see that. And if you can be comfortable in the discomfort, it allows them to be comfortable in the discomfort. And it's not about necessarily reconciliation at that point. It's not about, like, holding on until this other person comes and see you, or we don't want you to go.

We're not going to be able to live the same way without you. Those are not helpful scenarios for someone that is in that process of end of life. And so I guess ultimately that that's maybe a long road to get to is that's kind of the essence of dying well. So I think you're challenging us to lean into thinking about our own mortality and death. And in your experience, from a societal perspective, what's a normal belief about death and dying that we need to challenge or redefine if we're going to develop the courage and the desire to lean into thinking about this subject more.

That it is a fight that we will win. I mean, that's the simplest way to describe it, that it happens to everybody else but us. Interesting. And I would also add is that you have agency in how you do it. And it doesn't have to be medicalized.

I think now when we think of dying, it is an act of hospital. And it doesn't have to be. It can be intimate. It can be in your living room. You can have a ceremony.

Like, it can be anything that you want it to be. And it's kind of an astounding paradox is that on one hand, we are grasping to life. We're are grasping to to live another day, but we're also surrendering agency at the same time. And so what I would prompt people to think about is how can you let go of the grasping for the fight and then with that same intensity, hold on to your own agency and how it happens. So this is clearly a journey, and you, I think, alluded to the fact that from an early age, you were someone that was curious and and existentially looking at these issues.

As part of your journey, in terms of your own view of mortality, has there been a book or a movie or a piece of art or another form of media that impacted your views about death and dying and mortality? Yeah, there's actually I call it my philosophical spirit animal. There's he's a social psychologist, and he co wrote the book Worm at the Core, which is a essentially an experiment of proving Ernest Becker's denial of death to be true. Sheldon Solomon, he's an interesting human and compelling to listen to. So if you ever get a chance, just watch his YouTube videos.

But the way he's he simplifies it and breaks it down and instigates this thought process is that everything we do everything we do man is a reaction to defending off, he calls it the terror, but the scariness of mortality. And so I think that was profoundly eye opening for me just from the idea of that, like, wow, you can trace it to anything. And it is a reaction, like, you know, there's a there's a many case studies that our addiction to social media is by and large are trying to to prolong legacy and and hide, you know, the dirty bits of ourselves, which is our our vulnerability and fragility. So it sounds like that there's a process that you think is somehow hardwired into us where we unconsciously or consciously fight in all sorts of ways to deny that we are all gonna ultimately reach this stage? Yeah.

I mean, and look, it makes sense. Right? We we are no different. Sorry, folks. We are no different than every other species where our lizard survival brain wants to procreate, wants to eat, right, wants to survive the day, and wants sort of our lineage, our prodigy, that's not the word I'm looking for, wants ourselves to live beyond the here and now.

Progyny. That's the word I was trying to get to. Our progenies. So it all makes sense, right? That if we did not have these mechanisms to, in some ways, mask this gift of consciousness, which is the acknowledgement of of being alive.

But, you know, the rub of it is it's also the acknowledgement that we're going to die. If we didn't mask that in some way, we wouldn't leave our homes, right? We wouldn't be able to even walk down the street without hiding under rocks for the many, many things that can kill us at any given moment. So it's it is a natural it is a natural thing. And so then the trick lies or the challenge then lies in meditating it long enough where it brings us back to the present moment and to the reality and more importantly, like, what matters the most.

So when when done well, like, an effective momentum more practice can cut through the BS like nothing else. I mean, talk about a way to stack ranked priorities. Well, and you want to give our listeners a little bit of a glimpse of what that is? Yeah. So Memento Mori, just for clarity, is a Latin phrase that means remember that you will die.

It's a fundamental Buddhist practice. It was originated at least in this terminology in the Roman days, again, to make sure that people were living in the moment. You know, right now the the country of Bhutan, whose self proclaimed title as the happiest country in the world, is predicated on this practice of meditating on your mortality five times a day. And so what that means, it could be like finding a quote that resonates, that talks about death. It's about potentially just envisioning yourself as as a corpse.

It could be something as simple as recognizing that this may be the last conversation I have. Jim, this may be the last conversation I have. And so I appreciate you having me on your show, and I'm happy to be here. That is a practice of memento mori, of being like, out of all of the things that we think we're entitled to as a human being, time is the most abused topic or theme of entitlement. We are not entitled to time.

And so even like the recognition or saying of that is a memento mori practice. So it's it's really just kind of breaking through denial and being okay with with maybe this is this is the last one of this certain thing. Right? And the ability to wrestle with finitude, with limits, right? Everything in our outside world is saying limitless, limitless, limitless.

Everything is limitless. Growth, growth. Everybody's a superstar. You can be anything you want to be. And sure, that may be true to a certain extent, but the ability to say, all right, if life, the average life is four thousand weeks, that's a limited number.

And how do I manage the limit? And what comes out of that is like a fast track to gratitude, a fast track to be like, okay. So there's only realistically, I can only order 10 things from this menu. What do I want the most? And so, again, I guess maybe to to to spin it back to your to your original question, a memento mori practice can be before you go to bed, even a good acknowledgment to yourself to say, if I don't wake up in the morning, is there anything I want or don't want to be left unsaid?

Am I okay? Like, have I got my side of the street cleaned, so to speak? So you, it sounds like, recommend that there are certain practices that we can do that will allow us to live more in the present moment. And you even referred to Buddhism as a place where this was found in the Roman Empire, I believe. And so some of this wisdom is found in ancient organized religions, and yet your relationship with organized religion, I believe, is not traditional.

So how do you think about organized religion? How do I think about organized religion? I I think it's useful. Right? I I think that that it is important for humans to cooperate.

We need a common belief system. And so by function I think we would not have evolved in any real sense if we did not have that common belief system and that that common structure of understanding and more importantly practicing those beliefs. So so by function of evolution and again just community and altruism, I think it's incredibly important. The dividing line for me which I do not believe in God And so the question is, is that how does one get to all of those benefits of a religion, that social cohesion and that common thing to believe in without it being a god. So that's what's led me on my on my spiritual path.

And I have my own defined idea of even what spirituality is and means to me when and I think it's very important. So I don't I don't believe. Right. And that's, that's the definition of belief is I don't believe in at least any version of God that functions as within a religion that's available today, nor do I believe in any sort of afterlife. And then where that takes me to is to really have to answer the question for myself.

What do I believe in? Because again, I think I think belief is a fundamental aspect of being human. So then what do you believe in? I believe I believe it and talk about a leap of faith. My goodness.

I believe in humanity. I believe that we have each of us has the potential to be and do good beyond ourselves. And I think it's the only way to get out of this little prickly mess we find ourselves in is through being and doing better beyond what's best for ourselves. And listen, I understand that that can be a large part of many religions. I just index on that is what I put my faith in, is that we have that potential without the need for it to be because of punishment from an almighty.

Staying with that because it's beautiful in terms of the idea of having, you know, in a sense, a belief in faith in humanity and and the ultimate goodness out there. When you think about consciousness and and so forth, do you, as a curious person, where do you think our consciousness comes from? Is there such a thing as dissolution the ego where our consciousness merges into some kind of infinite place where it came from? I mean, is there a hopeful end to our dissolution of our ego from your perspective? I mean, that is where the fun is, right?

Is even the right? The search for that is where things get good. And what I've learned in my journey is that one, to always ask those important questions, always try to find the answer to those very fundamentally important questions, and then at the same time, being perfectly okay with knowing that you're never gonna find the answer. Right? It's the quest without needing to get to the end.

And so, like, yeah, I'm for the audience, I'm shrugging my shoulders. I don't know where consciousness comes from. But what I do know is that being alive and breathing and having this conversation is a miracle in some way. I mean, it's amazing to even think about. And so where I let that stay, that feeling stay is in the mystery.

And so wonder and awe are skills I think once we start going down the road of over articulation and mythology around the reasons why and and this is true for science as well, like I I love the scientific method and I love proof and I try to apply reason to most everything in life, but I also hold that steering wheel pretty loosely as well to be like, yeah, there is opportunity and there there are gaps of information and, yeah, that's where the that's where the fun magic is, is being like, yeah, I don't know, but isn't it cool? So coming up with a common language, and as you say, I agree with you, that's where the fun is. And curiosity is a rational experience, I think, whereas on wonder maybe you're a little more right brained. So trying to trying to move into a place where you and I can have some fun having a common language to talk about this, a rational belief in a finite, definable, all knowing, celestial butler God, I understand from a rational, scientific perspective, I can see where the new atheist and everybody says, you know, there is no God.

But from any from a right brain experiential perspective, when you experience oneness, when you experience those mystical times and those experiences where your ego is less strong, for instance, do you have some kind of knowing that there's something more than our physical existence, or is that not something you've experienced? I think it's a version of that. And I think it's for me, my interpretation of it and be it plant medicines or deep meditation, it's the transcendence happens down instead of up. I I think it's not something other than it's existing as we speak. And so, yeah, the dissolution of the ego is important because it's like oh, yeah, maybe we all are connected.

And there is a universal consciousness that we are just, you know, we've we're waves in the ocean and and, you know, all we remember is is being a wave and not realizing we are part of it all. But I lack, I guess, the notion of transcending into it, that we are we are already it. It's just re remembering. And I would also add too is that I also don't resonate with with the idea of of it being a non embodied experience, meaning I think that embodiment, our pneumatic presence, the way that we, you know, even including what we eat is a spiritual experience can be. That it is like our psyche, our body, and our spirit, you know, the trinity as they say, are real things that create an embodied consciousness and it's how we manage all three, right?

And so what I believe the spirit is is the sub ego the sub psyche that exists within our within our body or at least that that is how it is part of the way or it is the way that we experience the Oneness. And so when our embodied experience, AKA we die, when that ends, I don't think that that sort of that spirit that lies beneath the consciousness exists in some other form or transfers to something else. Happy if it does. But I but I yeah. Right.

Well, I I guess one of the the mysteries of life is we won't we won't know until we experience whatever that next Yeah. Dispensation is, so to speak. You mentioned, you know, plant medicine. You you mentioned kind of mystical experiences and otherwise and stuff. When people are having these mystical experiences or experimenting with things like plant medicine, do you think the intention going into the experience makes a difference?

And if so, how? I think it's vital. I think it's it's vital. You know, and sometimes it's it's letting go of those intentions, but I think it's important to do the pre work and, of course, take it very seriously and understanding the lineage and the method of and history of whatever plant medicine you are taking. So yeah, going in willy nilly or recreational is not as advised in my opinion.

So setting intentions, experiencing the journey in the most open way that you can, and sometimes that's going to require you to let go of those intentions. But I think that is part of the process and and the benefit of them is to kind of help you realize, and you mentioned before, the transcendence of ego or at least the the separation from ego. And and part of that is is to maybe to let go of intention. So absolutely, I think would think anything plant medicines that one would always want to go in open with an intention for sure. And when we're talking about, again, intention and we're talking about the use of these going back to some of the abuses or at least perceived abuses going back to the sixties and seventies, Do you think and and are people working on protocols and different ways to surround the discussion when people are craving these mystical experiences?

Yeah. I think it's a yes but answer. Yes. I think there are many reputable organizations that are creating these safe, very expansive spaces for people to explore. Right.

And I think that we all in some degree, at least my experience and my own feeling is that we have a God sized hole within us that we're trying to to fill in some capacity and people may have other language for it. But I think it's very important that and great that many of these organizations provide facilities and leaders that can help people on their journey. With that being said, people, along with intention, people should do their research as well. There are many other organizations that are trying to make a buck out of a trend as well. And so what's happening in Colorado and Oregon with with psilocybin research, I think, is is amazing and great.

And, you know, I've never experienced it personally, but I've I have friends that have had great results from facilitated and guided ketamine treatments. So my instinct is that there is a collective searching that's happening right now. I think maybe it's we are gathering and congregating in the notion that there is something more than the way that we're living. It's just kind of my instinct of of how, at least maybe the people I surround myself with. And so culture is responding.

And, you know, it's unfortunate that in the, you know, in the fifties and sixties that it was controlled and seen as as an evil with so many other potentially helpful medicines. Well, so if I was listening correctly, you said that all of us have a God sized hole. Mhmm. And if you don't believe in God and if you go back to what you said, which is that our reptilian brain wants to survive and protect ourselves, then we have an innate instinct to wanna fill that hole. So my question is, what is a healthy way to try to fill that hole, recognizing that paradoxically, there is no way to completely fill it?

And I think in the organized religion world, the idea is that everyone has some kind of God, and so our God is the way to fill it. Right? But then you have to live with the paradox, which is that then there would be no role for faith if you could really just fill it with God. Right? There is this existential condition that we all have the capacity to wrestle with if we if we dare to walk into that unknown because once you go into that unknown, there's you're not gonna find a great answer.

But how do you wrestle with this God hole in your life? It may sound counterintuitive, but I my pathway is doubt. As as you very well articulated, right, this faith or belief is the gap, is the void between the fear of the unknown and our yearning for something bigger beyond ourselves or the known, right? And so we fill that with with many different things or we leave it open and, you know, whether you be a nihilist or a fundamentalist, we fill it with something. And so what doubt does, it allows you to let something in and being like, okay, what what does this look like?

What are the tenants? What what are they what are they saying? And then you can be like, well, that doesn't square with this other thing, which could be reason. And then what's allowed me to do is just be okay with that journey. We're going to fill it in with something, like it or not, that gap between the unknown and the yearning for to be something beyond.

That exists for everybody. I fundamentally think it's it's part of the the contract of being human. And so if I were to give any advice for people is understand that, be okay with it, and try things out. And that's the sort of the slippery slope of belief is it's never you're never rationally going to make it true. So there has to be something that is a is a feeling that you have to be okay with and that feeling should always be interrogated and it should and, you know, like, listen, I said I believe in humanity.

I don't have to turn on the TV before that's put into question. Then once you're confronted with the alternatives or the contradictions to that, then how do you grow? How do you find the edges and and how do you deal with that? Or maybe how does that even increase your the degree in which you believe in it? And so I just can't see myself in any way shape or form of being a fundamentalist in anything is because what that is saying is that you're not interrogating you're not letting the world come into your perspective and letting doubt be a part of your life because and that's the only way that we're gonna grow spiritually.

So one of the challenges that we all have is that we use words to describe very deep concepts and we we grow up with our own conceptions of what a word means. And so when you use the word doubt I think I know what you mean, but other people are gonna hear it in their own way. If I wanted to expand upon what you're saying, would another way to supplement it be that we need to maintain humility, curiosity, the ability to really listen in and and learn new things, and to have that sense that, you know, when when I know I'm right, that means you're wrong, and that that leads that fundamentalist arrogance that although we have to make decisions, right, that we have to make decisions, having the humility to know that with twenty twenty hindsight, we in the future may make a different decision. But in this moment, we're gonna do the best we can. Yeah.

And and thank you for that. I I I think it's important. Yes. And I would add openness to that definition as well. As you just stated, life is provisional.

We are always getting new information, and we and we should let that information, you know, influence us. It's the famous question that was posed to the Dalai Lama, what if science proves your beliefs to be wrong? And, you know, he simply said, then I would have to reassess my beliefs. I think that's a very profound statement from, you know, one of our most profound religious leaders. So, yeah, so I I think when I say doubt, I guess, humility, openness, and the ability to maybe even non emotionally be considerate of people and the world.

Yeah. You know, one one of the things I've been the most frustrated about is this desire to come up with a common language. And in different religions, for instance, I think there's a statement from Lao Tzu that says, you know, the the Dow that can be spoken is not the true Dow. And in the Christian Jewish Bible, for instance, there's the Tower Of Babel. And the idea is that the 70 languages are created from that and that no one can understand the other anymore because we're divided into these 70 different languages.

Or in the Garden of Eden, where the one thing we can we can live in the Garden of Eden, but we can't know from we can't eat from this one tree that will give us knowledge. That there is and and and that by desiring knowledge, we actually create death because it's a it's a different level of consciousness. But if you stay away from this desire to know, right, and you can live in this place of humility and awe and wonder and openness, that you can experience transcendence and grace and what people refer to as, quote, God without concretizing around it. And for me, that's the hardest thing is to have these discussions where we're talking about awe and wonder and and mysticism and and the expansiveness of the universe. And as soon as we bring them down into words, we leave people behind.

So well said. And I agree. And, like and I understand it too because, again, we are trying to make it through the day and make sense of the world. And so we do lose that feeling. And I what came up for me as you were talking was that also being okay as an individual to have your own journey as you sit and wrestle and form your own version of what this means to you is to be okay with it not necessarily having to look identical to somebody else.

And I know that sounds contradictory to what I said at the beginning of your word, like, belief is part of this idea of being human and it what a common belief is what coalesces us and and has helped evolution. But I think, you know, as we have evolved that, man, not only is it okay, but I think part of this experience is is something that should be wrestled with. Yeah. Absolutely. And again, going back to, you know, these these organized religions, you know, one of the famous things is the wrestling that Jacob does with the angels and otherwise that there is this need in human consciousness, you know, to to wrestle with these issues.

And we don't arrive at a permanent place, that there is something about the search and the process that does bring us a sense of grace and and intimacy. When you're having discussions again with people that are near death or in general, in a society where we have, you know, so many views of God and religion and humanism, do you think or have you found a productive manner to have these discussions with people? Yeah. I'll tie it into what you just said about language is that from my experience, you know, what spiritual care ultimately is is contextualizing their pain and suffering through mythology and symbolism. And so once you can kind of understand that perspective as they're just trying to make sense of the world too.

They're trying to make sense of my goodness the immediacy of of what's about to happen or a multitude of other things. So understanding that finding ways as a chaplain, as a spiritual care advisor to assist them in contextualizing the world pain in particular that's what it's all about. That's the trick. And then you will find that the scaffolding of the religion itself becomes far less important. It's a feeling more than a yearning.

It's a feeling. It's trying to make sense. And sure, religion can help with that, but it's kind of not even necessary if you really can see it and understand it from the, you know, opposite side of of the bed. Well, and if I'm expanding on what you said about doubt and humility and openness, I would imagine that when you're with these people in these very vulnerable times, your ability to see them and to be open and vulnerable with them is authentic. And I would think that that would lead to some interesting conversations, especially I mean, how do those conversations go when it is somebody, for instance, that has a more organized traditional belief about religion?

There have been a few occasions where people really want to talk about it. Oftentimes what I believe doesn't even come up. And oftentimes me letting them know what I believe is arbitrary. It's not important, but I believe. As you just said, it's, you know, it's about an authentic experience and being there for them.

And also to just kind of play on this idea of our, you know, the Holy Trinity of embodiment or maybe not so holy, but the trinity of embodiment is that, you know, the doctors take care of the body, obviously. Occasionally, if you're lucky, there will be a social worker or a therapist that can come and help you help your psyche. But that third component is the most vital when you are end of life and it's also the least thought about it. Certainly the least resourced version is your spirit. And what I mean by spirit is kind of your consciousness.

It is your you beneath your ego. And so are there cases where someone wants to talk specifically about heaven? Sure or maybe ask me about what I believe in the afterlife but you know it's so funny I'm trying to think of a story that could give that some life but it rarely happens believe it or not right? I mean even if they talk about heaven it's usually someone's going to be there to meet them And then that's what their spirit is. Then you talk about that person.

What what did they mean to you? Who who is that? What do you think they're gonna say when they meet you? I'm not there to try to talk them out of belief in heaven. That's missing the point.

I'm there to help, you know, I'm there to help and soothe their spirit. And you and you hit this on the head too when you said it's kind of a superpower to be a humanist in that situation because I'm going into every room not knowing. And it's that not knowing is what gives you the direct line into finding the quickest way to get into their boat and being like, yeah, what do you believe in? What happens? Again, it's such a maybe counterintuitive thing.

It has rarely anything to do with what I believe in, and I'm okay with not agreeing with them. That's perfectly fine with me. I don't have to believe. And it's true for all chaplains, right, that have gone through the education. It's not about proselytizing at all.

It's about how are you seeing the world interpreting the world through your pain? And what is your what is your spirit need right now? Well, and as you're the spiritual guide, so to speak, in that situation and you're talking about ego and consciousness, for instance, what's it like to experience the consciousness separating from the ego? Man, I mean, like, specific incidents or just like a general Well, I've been with people when they've died, and I've read a lot about this. But I think as Tolstoy said about every unhappy family, every unhappy family is unhappy in his own way.

I I would assume, and you've been around death more than I have, that there is a uniqueness to each person's experience. And you talk about, you know, a good end, so to speak, the the end well stage. And in those instances where there isn't the fight, right, where there is this the mind switch starts to switch off, and there's this underlying consciousness and energy and love and true personality there. Right? When you're witnessing that, I mean, I I just to share whatever comes to mind in terms of what you've experienced in in dealing with people in that transitional period.

I will do a plug real quick. There is a palliative care nurse, she's also a Buddhist, named Sally Tisdale, and she has a book that is amazing called Advice for Future Corpses. So if anybody listening is remotely curious, what she does is she kind of guides the reader through essentially a typical countdown. And it's so helpful to understand and to hear because there are as you alluded, there are commonalities. All right.

There is there certainly is uniqueness, but there is commonality and it's an experience. And one on the outside looking in doesn't, like, we won't know until we know. And so what we interpret to be maybe a a soul leaving the body can be if something happening to their physicalness, their body when you die. But the commonality is it appears to be a, depending on how medicated a person is, a profoundly deep experience that may come with pain, that may be euphoric, but it is an experience nonetheless. And it's also an experience to and Sally talks about this in her book that is we as family or we as as those standing in presence and and witnessing need to make sure that all our stuff is on the other side of the door and that this space is just for them.

Make it as clean and give them the space to, again, have this experience that none of us will know until we know. Yeah. It's beautifully said. And again, because it is so experiential, we're asked to put things into words that can't really be put into words, and I see you wrestling with how to do that. And what what I would say is that I I hear what you're saying, but I my intuition is is that my telling you that I know what you feel or experience would be minimizing what you're experiencing in those situations.

Yeah. You know, I mean, I guess I'll talk about Phil and the moments in the execution chamber when he died. Knowing that as far as your senses are concerned, your sense of hearing is, I think, we have good evidence to know that is the last to go. Sight is is usually the first to go. And so I went into the execution chamber and, you know, immediately and and talk about, like, religion, I I grounded the the space.

I tried to make it sacred. I did our version of a prayer. And, you know, once the sort of the final words happened and and the execution began and and the first of the three cocktails was a was a sedative, and so he it it took effect rather quickly. I was actually surprised about how quickly he started to mumble. And he was talking about his case, and that was my my biggest concern was that that he would die angry.

And again, like, you know, all that I'm saying about not knowing what happens after we die or nothing happens after we die. But there's there still is, I think, importance to when you do die or when a person does die to allow them to do so in a space that is resonated with as much positive energy as we as witnesses can can muster. Whether that affects karma, whether that affects the next life, I don't know. But I think even as an experience, I I think it I I would hope and and and assume that it makes all of the difference. And so as he was talking about his case and, you know, being wrongfully killed, I interrupted him quite loudly and just said, Phil, you are loved and you are not alone.

And then I could just I could just see again, maybe it was a sedative, but but he instantly stopped talking. I could see the effect it had on his physical body. He relaxed. And I just said over and over again in a, you know, in a cadence that felt right is that you are you are loved and and you are not alone. And I think it's important for people to to feel that and know that as they transition.

And, you know, I've I've been asked since many times is then what do you tell somebody about the afterlife in that moment when they're when they're dying? And you you don't right what you you tell them what's happening in that moment we're not kicking the can here it's about like it's okay to let go and you and you are loved And although you're going on this journey right now by yourself, we are here. We are here with you. And so I think that's that's the important lesson about spiritual care is that, you know, people when they die, they're again, it's all speculation that you can't feel someone else's fear. You can't feel someone else's anxiety.

You can't feel their maybe their curiosity of of what that space is gonna be like. But but what we can do is just let them know that we've showed up and doing so where it's not about us. It's about it's about them and and hopefully making them feel loved as they take this step into a transition that is the greatest of unknowns that each one of us is going to take at some point. I find it far more useful to think about what's now than what's next. And I'm happy to be wrong.

I do my best to live the best to be the best version of myself I can be. If if that doesn't meet the requirement of a religion that that truly exists out there, then then my apologies. However, what's next is insignificant. What's now or let me just rephrase that. What's after this life is insignificant.

What happens during this life is everything. Devin, that's a beautiful way to end. By the way, Devin, I will say, when you were saying this, it's it's fascinating because I've studied a lot of different religions and we get it so wrong in terms of is that, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater, good teachers versus good religion. And if you take what you said about what your next life would be or karma or doubt, humility, unknown, there really is an ancient Kabbalistic belief that in the Bible there's no discussion whatsoever of an afterlife. There isn't.

Go back and look at the Bible. It says you'll be gathered to your kin. That's all we know. We know that our mothers and fathers made this journey and that if they did it, maybe we can have the humility and the courage to go to where they are, not knowing what it is, but with that. And and that each moment in this life, the opportunity for you and I to connect, that's all there is.

And if we can be kind to each other and love others and see the other and really focus on that, there is no death. And then, yes, we have to paradoxically think about death to be reminded of the finite nature of life. But ultimately, I've experienced so many mountains in my life where I had no idea what was on the other side, and yet I'm still here. And I've been curious and surprised many, many times. And I hope all of us can live courageously and with love and with light the way you, I think, are urging us to do, but that to have that spark of humility and awe and wonder, and a sense that if our parents could do this, maybe there really is a happy ending at this.

But let go of that, and make the journey courageously anyway, and model to the people left behind that it will be okay. Yeah. Befriend uncertainty. Yeah. I love that.

Befriend uncertainty. Make the darkness your friend. Yeah. Yeah. The POC Venture Capital Beyond is produced by CMG Advisors.

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