Jeffrey Rosen: The Pursuit of Happiness

Welcome to The Puck, Venture Capital and Beyond, a show that examines the changing landscape of our world. Before we dive in, a quick word about who I am and why we're here. I'm Jim Bier, corporate lawyer and restructuring professional. I've spent the last two decades helping companies navigate their toughest transitions. And about eight years ago, I found myself having fascinating conversations with clients and friends about everything from venture capital to the broader shifts happening in our economy and society.

Those discussions were simply too good, so the puck was born. Now while we started on venture capital, hence the podcast name, the Puck Venture Capital and Beyond, We've naturally evolved to focus more on the and beyond portion of the title. Today, we explore how business intersects with the bigger forces shaping our world. I still run my restructuring practice by day, but now I get to host these conversations by night. It has become one of the most rewarding parts of my life.

Today's guest continues that tradition. You have to be really disciplined in how you use your time and what you admit into your thoughts. The founders are very focused on what people read and write and when the kind of music that they listen to because that's what creates the pictures in our heads that really create our sense of reality and as we imagine ourselves to be, so shall we be. Today on the Puck, I speak with Jeffrey Rosen, president and CEO of the National Constitution Center and the host of We the People, a weekly podcast on constitutional debate. Now Rosen is a professor of law at George Washington University Law School, an author, and a contributing editor at The Atlantic.

Our conversation centers on the ideas from his new book, The Pursuit of Happiness, how classical writers on virtue inspired the lives of the founders and defined America. We explore the importance of character and values, and how the founders understanding of happiness shaped the constitution and the declaration of independence, and the risks of misinterpreting what they meant by the pursuit of happiness in today's society. It's a compelling discussion, so let's get to it. Jeffrey Rosen, welcome to the Puck. Great to be here.

So before we jump in, can you just take a minute and tell our audience a little bit about yourself? Sure. I'm the president and CEO of the National Constitution Center in Philly. It's a wonderful national treasure. It's a museum of the constitution in Philadelphia on Independence Mall, and also America's leading nonpartisan platform for constitutional education.

So you've got to check it out at constitutioncenter.org. We will definitely do that. And with what's going on in the world today, that constitution is is certainly on the front of people's, mind. But to try to maybe give people a little bit of break from all the political craziness out there, you talk a lot about religion and spirituality spirituality. Can you tell us a little bit about your own journey in in that regard?

Absolutely. The book that I just wrote, The Pursuit of Happiness, was an important process in that journey. During COVID, I set out to read the books of ancient moral philosophy that inspired Thomas Jefferson and the other founders when he put that language about the pursuit of happiness in the declaration of independence. And what I learned changed my life. It changed what I think about how to be a good person, how to be a good citizen, and how to lead a spiritually meaningful life.

And what I learned from reading these great books, Cicero and Seneca and Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus, was that for the founders and for the ancient philosophers, happiness meant not feeling good, but being good. Not the pursuit of immediate pleasure, but the pursuit of long term virtue. And it was very much a spiritual quest, and it was a central part of my own. That's fascinating. And can you take a minute and I'm gonna I mean, I wanna know about your journey, but I also wanna know what what how did the classical virtue shape the founding fathers vision of America?

And what what first drew you to this intersection of kind of philosophy, governance, and the virtue of ethics? It was a series of unexpected synchronicities during COVID. I noticed that both Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson had chosen as their motto for efforts to lead morally self improving lives, a book by Cicero I'd never heard of called the Tusculan Disputations. And Franklin took from this book the motto, without virtue, happiness cannot be. And Jefferson, when he was asked for the meaning of happiness, would send a larger passage from Cicero that said essentially, he's achieved calm self mastery, who's neither unduly exuberant or despondent.

He's the self possessed man of whom we request. He's the happy man. So basically, I thought I've got to read the Cicero book because it was so important to both Franklin and Jefferson in defining happiness as virtue. But what else to read? And then I found this amazing reading list that Jefferson would send to anyone who asked him when he was old, how to be educated.

And I was struck, both by the scope of the list, and by Jefferson's schedule. The scope includes books on philosophy, and history, and literature, and poetry. I focused on the section on moral philosophy that Jefferson sometimes called ethics, and sometimes natural religion. And at the top of that list was Cicero's Tusculum disputations, and then those other philosophers I mentioned, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and enlightenment philosophers like Locke and Hutchison and Bolingbroke. And what struck me about the list is that I hadn't read any of the authors on it, and I've had a marvelous liberal arts education.

I've studied politics, philosophy, English literature in college. I was an English major and law with with great teachers at great universities, but I've I've missed these great books of moral philosophy because they've fallen out of the curriculum when I was in college in the eighties. And then I was also struck by Jefferson's schedule. He said, you've got to get up every morning before dawn and read the moral philosophy for two hours and watch the sunrise and then continue to read history in the morning, then lunch, then science in the afternoon and evening, then dinner, then poetry and light Shakespeare in the, you know, at night and in bed twelve hours a day. So it was COVID.

I was kind of inspired to try it. And I I didn't read for twelve hours, but I did get up before sunrise. I read the moral philosophy for two hours. I watched the sunrise, and that was the practice that was just completely transformative. And it and it helped me understand that for the founders, this this effort to achieve self mastery that Cicero described as the quest for self improvement really was a spiritual quest.

And, that was what really impressed me so much. So let's stay with that for a minute. Let's talk about before and after, right? So you you did these practices during COVID and so forth, and taking it down from kind of the mind level to how it actually has impacted your life and and changed you. How how would you describe that?

The biggest transformation was getting back into the habit of deep reading. I'd fallen out of the habit of deep reading because I'm addicted to screens. And, you know, I could read for my deadlines and for work, but just the practice every morning of getting up and reading for two hours just for its own sake, for my own self improvement and lifelong learning was transformative. So I have a new rule since I finished the project and I had the happiness book. When I wake up in the morning, I'm not allowed to browse or surf until I've read or engaged in some other creative work, And it's really been transformative.

It led me to I've just finished another book, The Pursuit of Liberty, How Hamilton versus Jefferson Ignited the Lasting Battle Over Power in America, which is a history of America from 1776 to today and our fights over national power versus states' rights and a strong executive versus congressional leadership and how to interpret the Constitution. And I also found myself in the morning being more creative, and I started writing songs about two years ago. And we've collected a bunch of them and are issuing an album on the pursuit of happiness. And the songs are all about self mastery, you know, resolution and just do what you resolve and calm self mastery. And a music professor at Dickinson College likes them and is having them professionally transcribed, and we're gonna record them.

And we'll share them as as part of a podcast series I'm doing with with Ken Burns on the pursuit of happiness, where he talks about his own morning efforts to achieve self mastery by reading from Tolstoy's book of wisdom and reflecting on that advice. And it's just very meaningful to be on this quest where you're using every day, in particular, the the morning, to to get out of your ego based head and to be attempting to do creative work or deep reading or learning to connect with something larger than yourself. Totally makes sense. So in in the book, you discuss, you know, figures like Franklin and and Washington. How do you see that playing in or breaking down in today's world when you look at leadership today?

Well, it's really striking how devoted to self improvement the founding generation was. Of course, they fell short on many in many ways, as they acknowledge, they're always beating themselves up for not being industrious enough or wasting time or squandering their opportunities. They also betrayed their ideals in important ways, most notoriously and importantly slavery. But they're very morally serious. And until the end of their lives, they're engaged in deep reading, trading book suggestions, and and essentially, they're lifelong learners, which in some ways is the definition of the pursuit of happiness.

Another thing that's very striking is that for the founders, personal self government is necessary for political self government. In other words, we can't sustain ourselves as a republic, unless we first look to ourselves and the constitutions of our own minds, and unless we cultivate the virtues of temperance, prudence, courage, and justice, these are the classical virtues of a moderation of spirit in our own minds, then we won't be able to cultivate the same virtues in the Constitution of the State. That's why George Washington warns when he strikes down that unless citizens find the resources to engage in virtuous self mastery, they will succumb to demagogues, to Julius Caesar like dictators, and the American Republic will go the way of Greece and Rome, and every other previous republic. So it was very striking to me to see their constant word warnings about how fragile the republic is, that the Hamilton Jefferson book I've just finished begins with an anecdote of Jefferson and Hamilton meeting over dinner. Washington's away, the cabinet is meeting at Jefferson's house, and, at some point, Hamilton looks around the room and says, who are those portraits on the wall?

And Jefferson says, those are my portraits of the three greatest men in the world. John Locke, and Francis Bacon, and Isaac Newton. And Hamilton pauses for a moment and says, the greatest man in the world was Julius Caesar. But Jefferson writes down in his diary, this means that Hamilton is yearning to resurrect Caesarism in America, and is for a monarchy bottomed on corruption. Now this is almost certainly, either misinformation or a joke.

Ron Chernow concludes Hamilton was joking because he spends so much of his career warning about a Caesar who will flatter the people and in exchange for cheap luxuries and bread and circuses will persuade them in the Senate to allow him to consolidate power and establish himself as a dictator. Jefferson too is afraid of a Caesar from above rather than below and worries that, a Caesar will thwart majority will. But this fear of Caesarism with which both Hamilton and Jefferson take out in their lifetime becomes focused on Aaron Burr. And both Jefferson and Hamilton agree that Aaron Burr is, was conniving to with the British government to lead an insurrection in Spanish Louisiana and install himself as a permanent dictator. And that's why Hamilton sides with Jefferson over Burr and leading leading to the fatal duel.

So the book really explores how this fear of Caesarism is pervasive in America. Of course, we're we're seeing charges of Caesarism resurrected today. It's too too soon to know whether or not we're seeing the fulfillment of, Hamilton Jefferson's fears, but it's all connected to virtue. Because from the beginning, the founders thought that unless citizens are moderate, temperate, elect virtuous leaders and can find moderation in their own habits, then the republic cannot be sort of sustained. When when you look at what's going on today, whether that's the republicans or the democrats, or we talk about religious people or secular people, In terms of having this balance and and discussion on virtues and maintaining this balance, how how does that balance going from your perspective?

The founders were very concerned that religion and politics were the two main sources of faction. And they noted that throughout history, we fought wars because of religious or political factions. The red rose and the white rose as John Adams said, or the Whigs and the Tories meant that British history was the story of blood and violence, when politics is untempered by principle. And Adams believed, he wrote to John Quincy Adams that unless we temper our factions with the principles of the constitution, then we too will descend into faction. And and they were just as concerned about factions arising from religious as as political extremists.

There's no question today that on the right and the left, we're seeing ideological extremism, both in our religious institutions and our political institutions. Now there are some notable exceptions, and I wanna share how moved I was by a recent talk at Brigham Young University. I talked about the pursuit of happiness and daily virtue, and 5,000 students, stood up at my suggestion, I think with the encouragement of the dean, and recited the virtues that they embrace as part of their mission oaths. And they talked about these virtues in 20 languages, and it was incredibly moving to experience. And the LDS church is really devoted to this kind of spiritually meaningful life in a way that transcends political factions.

They've really been leaders also in looking for common ground when it comes to questions involving the balance between church and state and and religious accommodations. And for me, they're a shining example of something that, of course, many faith traditions are embracing of avoiding the dangers of descending into faction and really putting moderation and and and the spiritual quest a first. Now that's one university. When you look at across the board, do you see an upswing in terms of people's focusing on virtue and self improvement and balancing kind of a more robust secular religious practice in America today? It's it's hard to measure.

I mean, there's there's no doubt that the understanding of happiness as the pursuit of virtue rather than pleasure got abandoned, sometime in the late twentieth century. In the nineteen sixties, happiness came to be seen as feeling good rather than being good, you know, gratify your immediate impulses rather than deferred gratification. Pop culture began celebrating materialism and hedonism. So this is not front and center when it comes to the way people are thinking about the pursuit of happiness. We've also seen a dramatic decline in religious affiliation, especially interestingly in the early decades of the twenty first century, as Jonathan Rauch shows in his interesting new book on the subject.

So this is going against the cultural zeitgeist, to put it mildly, but there's certainly a hunger in America for it. I've been so moved, traveling around the country on behalf of the National Constitution Center to see how hungry people are for this kind of spiritual, morally serious life. They share their own practices of digital sabbaths and getting off the screens and trying to devote themselves to self improvement or prayer or spiritually meaningful daily practice. So people are hungry for it and we all know how important it is to lead a spiritually serious life. Totally, totally makes sense.

How do you see the role of organized religion balanced with the constitution? I mean, there's a certain black and white thinking in organized religion that seems to, it's us versus them. How do you approach it in a way that's that becomes inclusive as opposed to divisive? A a crucial question. It's inspiring to see how many of the founders believed that complete protection for freedom of conscience was totally consistent with people leading spiritually meaningful lives.

Jefferson understands freedom of conscience is the first and most important unalienable right. He says that the opinions of men being dependent on evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot be controlled by other men. In other words, I can't tell you or anyone else what to think. I can't even tell myself what to think because it's the product of my reason, and reason is inherent in who I am as a human being, and I can't surrender it to government or to any tyrant or to anyone else. So, with the shining enlightenment faith and reason is very compatible also with spiritually devoted practice.

And although the founders explicitly reject the idea that America could ever set up any national church, that's what the Establishment Clause of the Constitution says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. At the same time, they believe that individuals should be free to exercise their religion freely, that's the free exercise of religion, without any compulsion from the state. It's a it's a delicate balance, but it's also the the shining achievement of of the enlightenment, to to see a a complete compatibility of faith and reason. There have always been illiberal forces in religions of all stripes that have insisted, on an attempt to dominate in the public sphere, and have said that they alone, should have exclusive privileges or be recognized as a national faith, and that's not the American tradition. So the the the more I read about the founders' spiritual quest, the more impressed I am by their pluralism, their liberalism, and their belief that all that was compatible with spiritually serious lives.

Have you run-in any resistance because of this kind of rewriting of history in terms of a bunch of white men who were slave owners, and how are we looking to these people as role models, and how do you deal with that? It's a crucial question. In the book, I just tell the story honestly, and I note how striking it was that all of the enslavers of this generation did not defend slavery. They all recognized that it was immoral and wicked, And there's a quote from Patrick Henry that kind of summed up the reality for me. Henry says, is it not amazing that I myself who believed slavery violates the Bible and natural law, my cell phone slaves.

I won't justify it. I won't attempt to. It's simple avarice or greed. I can't do with the inconvenience of living without it. And that's the brutal truth that he knew it was wicked and wrong, but he liked the lifestyle and didn't wanna give it up.

And that was the bottom line for all of the enslavers of that generation. Most notoriously Jefferson, who was constantly insisting that slavery was immoral and violated natural law, but always insisting that it had to be ended at some point in the increasingly distant future. And Jefferson, of course, was the most addicted to the avaricious lifestyle of luxury and ease at Monticello that made it impossible for him to give up the life the lifestyle. And on his death, he freed only a handful of slaves who were his own children by Sally Hemings. He promised her that he would free them as a condition for her coming back from Paris, but he didn't free any other enslaved, people, and and mothers and kids were separated, and the whole estate had to be sold because he was so avaricious and lived so far beyond his means.

So just telling that story, it's a complicated story, but it's a it's a true story. I found has resonated in America because although our civic education and our historical debates can be very polarized, there's a hunger for just telling the truth, warts and all. And it's it's not a a pretty story. It doesn't exonerate the founders for for their moral compromises, but it does help us understand them, and it also invites us to reflect about whether we ourselves today are morally pure, or whether we too are engaged in activities that we know are wrong because we like the lifestyle and don't want to give it up. What's next for you?

I mean, do you see like, what role do you see yourself in playing in terms of bringing these issues to people? I mean, obviously, you wrote this book. You're talking right now about this, But what do you see is next for you, and what is what is driving you in in in that regard? What drives me is just a passion for advancing the inspiring mission of the National Constitution Center, which I love to recite on all of our podcasts and programs just to remind us of how how how important it is. The National Constitution Center is the only institution in America chartered by Congress to increase awareness and understanding of the constitution among the American people on a nonpartisan basis.

What an inspiring moment it was during the bicentennial of the constitution in in 1987, when Congress and president Reagan created this private nonprofit to bring together liberals and conservatives to explore areas of agreement and disagreement about the constitution. We do that on all our platforms at the museum in Philly on Independence Mall, but also online. And it's just inspiring to see that the interactive constitution, which we launched in 2015, that brings together the top liberal and conservative scholars to debate the constitution, has gotten now nearly a 100,000,000 hits since we launched. It's now among the most Googled constitutions in the world. The week the weekly We The People podcast I host every week where I bring together liberal and conservative scholars to talk about the constitutional issues in the news has a really meaningful following.

We have a constitution one zero one course online that we've just launched a version of with Khan Academy. And now we're developing a series of courses around the founders, civic virtue, and the pursuit of happiness, which will help adult learners and learners of all ages starting in middle school to lead a a morally serious life. And in addition to all that, I have this this new book I'm really excited about about Hamilton and Jefferson and the enduring and lasting debate over power in America. So as as you can see, I really am enthusiastic and honored to be part of this incredible institution. These are very challenging times as we all know, and people are disagreeing strongly about politics, and there are serious questions about where the constitutional balance is and should be struck.

But that's why it's so important to have a nonpartisan institution, but then just invites people to to reflect deeply, to learn about history, to approach issues not from a political, but from a constitutional perspective, and to make up their own minds. Do you feel like we're going in the right direction? Like, are you optimistic that more and more people are starting to come around to see things the way you are? Do you feel sometimes lonely in this process? Well, of course, the goal isn't to get people to see things the way I do, but to think for themselves and to, educate themselves and to read the primary sources and listen to diverse perspectives, so that they can make up their own minds.

It's incredibly gratifying to see the reaction we're getting through all these materials. I mentioned the web stats for the interactive constitution, a 100,000,000 unique visits. Whenever there's a constitutional issue in the news, you can look at the web traffic and people are googling the constitution, and our materials are coming up top. So 500,000 visitors a day during some of the big constitutional debates that we're having. Now there's definitely a hunger in America to get past the partisanship, to to have trusted resources where you can engage with diverse perspectives.

So in that regard, I'm optimistic. You talked about addicted to screens and, you know, we've got these algorithms that are making people afraid and and and purposely reinforcing the the beliefs we already have and and again, making us afraid and angry. You've got this strategy now where you're reading in the morning, and from your perspective, do you do you feel like that is a good antidote to to the online addiction that so many people seem to be struggling with right now? The best antidote I've come up with. I just can't recommend it enough.

It's it's like going, you know, giving up boots, and you just feel so much more grounded and suck and sober and centered. Jefferson had a great line. He said, I've given up newspapers for Tacitus, and I feel much better every day. Tacitus was his favorite writer of all, the Roman historian. And I found that too you know, one of my jobs is to do a weekly on the news podcast, but I do not check the news 20 times a day because it just distracts you and, gets you off course.

You have to be really disciplined in how you use your time and what you admit into your thoughts. The founders are very very focused on what people read and write and when the kind of music that they listen to, because that's what creates the the pictures in our heads that really create our sense of reality, and as we imagine ourselves to be, so shall we be. It's tough because these addictions are real. I mean, I still, of course, I'm constantly on email when I'm not doing when I'm not doing my morning reading. But it's it just is so empowering.

It it you feel like you're using time productively. And and the main wisdom of the stoics and the ancient philosophers is, don't try to control the thoughts and emotions of others. Focus on the only thing you can control, which is your own thoughts and emotions, and in particular, your use of time. And if you're really mindful about the use of time and just try to use every moment productively rather than getting distracted with, stuff you can't control, it's really empowering. When you look at others, like in the business community, for instance, and you look at what's happened to CEO salaries as compared to average salaries for workers and so forth, there does seem to be this kind of intense capitalistic movement.

There's the the wealth inequality that we're suffering today. And when you talk about mission driven leadership and corporate responsibility, how do you think we can motivate today's leaders to understand the importance of the virtues of moderation and prudence and justice that you talk about? Well, the first thing to do is to realize how important it is for for our own pursuit of happiness. Many people, all of us, CEOs, workers, people of all different backgrounds, are feeling a sense of of spiritual emptiness, a desire for a sense of purpose, and at the very least, a deep sense that we're all addicted to these these screens and are anxious and unsatisfied because of them. So it's it's just as a matter of of personal self mastery, really empowering to realize it's within our control to lead a more satisfying life devoted to self improvement and the service of others.

And then you can make the case for for to to CEOs that it's really good in the workplace. It's good for productivity, for team building, for a sense of meaning, and for the future of democracy. Just civil dialogue in the workplace is so important. Our politics are so polarized that workplaces are are being torn apart over political disagreements just as citizens are. And relearning the habits of civil dialogue, how to disagree without being disagreeable, how to listen to differing points of view, how to be open to points of view you disagree with, is a crucial civic skill for good citizenship, and it's a crucial, worker skill for for for being a good, member of a team.

So, as a result, the the National Constitution Center is creating a series of courses and presentations for CEOs, where we're talking about the virtues and the pursuit of happiness. We're experimenting with different ways, inviting some workplaces to try the Franklin virtues. Franklin famously made a list of 13 virtues and put them on a chart, and every night resolved to put an x mark in on the chart on the day of the week where he'd fallen short of a particular virtue. He gave this up after a while, because it was so depressing, because there were so many x marks, but his virtue project is has inspired a lot of people over time, and and some workplaces are inviting their their leadership teams to try it, and then talk as a team about how they've done, you know, in in keeping and maintaining temperance or prudence or resolution during the day. So it's just there, all any all all these opportunities to get off the screens to start thinking about American first principles is really meaningful.

And of course, this is all especially timely as we're approaching the two hundred and fiftieth birthday of America next year in 2026, to really recommit to defending the principles of the American idea. How do you see the role of personality or big leaders? I mean, Washington, Lincoln were known for, you know, their great leadership, but they were very humble. They exercised restraint. I mean, in a world where there is so much attention being given, you know, by social media and so forth, how do you think we actually without these big figures, how do you think we really inspire people to make a pretty big paradigm shift?

Well, you're actually right that you need leaders to inspire people. Washington is the greatest man of his age because he inspires people to lead virtuous lives. There's that amazing moment at Newburgh, the soldiers are gonna rebel and have a military coup, because Congress won't pay them. And Washington mounts this, and Washington's being invited to set himself up as a dictator, as a Caesar, and to lead the coup. He refuses.

He he mounts this wooden structure called the Temple Of Virtue, and he appeals to the soldiers for prudence, temperance. He says, just wait a little bit, and I'll ensure that you're paid. He tries to read his speech. He he has to take out his reading glasses, and he says, forgive me, gentlemen. I've I've grown old in your service, and now I've grown almost blind.

And the soldiers weep because he's expressed humility. The great Washington shows that even he recognizes his frailties. And that magnificent example of self mastery and leadership through humility is is what makes Washington the greatest man of his age, along with, of course, his decision to step down from the presidency. And King George says, if he steps down rather than setting himself up as president for life, he'll be the greatest man in the world, which he was ultimately viewed as. We need leadership.

At all the crucial moments of American history, the revolution, the civil war, we had Washington and Lincoln. These are very challenging times. And unless we can find leaders who are able to escape from this social media environment that rewards extremism and partisanship, and instead be models of self mastery and moderation and restraint, then we are not going to be able to sustain the American experiment. And do you think that these types of leaders can just emerge and that people will recognize it and gravitate towards it? Because you know, you talk a lot about these leaders, and and I too am very focused on history and and and great leaders.

And and I look back at, again, whether or not it's the Jesus', the Moses', the Gandhi's. And and you look around the world today, whether or not it's talking about Xi or Putin, you know, in in in America today, whether or not you're talking about Democratic leaders or Republican leaders, in in terms of someone that, you know, just inspires this sense of virtue and this sense of sacrifice, it it it just seems like the world today is is lacking that. It really does. And I share your insistence on avoiding just getting focused on American political, struggles. But there's no question that in America and around the world, examples of this purpose driven leadership are under siege.

Now it's not the case that we haven't had great leaders. In finishing this Hamilton Jefferson book, I was so struck by what deep readers presidents of both political parties were, and how deeply they read in American history, reflecting on the writings of Hamilton and Jefferson themselves, including John Quincy Adams, Martin Van Buren, Lincoln, James Garfield, who was a history professor and said I must read more history, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Kelvin Coolidge, FDR, and then, look at, think about the recent ones, Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush, and Barack Obama all read a lot of history, as as Bush said. That's Republicans and Democrats.

And when we step back, we realized that we we've actually we may have done better with the our leaders than we appreciated at the time. But it's undoubtedly the case that the social media environment rewards polarization and partisanship, and people derive their identity more from their allegiance to party loyalty and extremism and to individuals than to lead to moderate leaders who will serve the public good. So that's a real challenge. It takes both great ability, but also courage to to buck the immediate incentives to be the most extreme, most partisan guy possible in order to win primaries. And those leaders don't emerge frequently in American history, but hopefully, they will in the future.

You know, I wonder. There's there was there's a concept of this notion that as as as the world evolves, that and this wisdom, literature, and ability to read becomes so prevalent around the world. I mean, when you think about the printing press and you think about education, I mean, the world today is very different than it was a few hundred years ago. And there there's some belief that there's what we call, like, a decline in the great leaders, and and we can't rely on others to do it for us. That that the notion is that each individual has to become educated and and work on their virtue, and then out of that, you know, there's a new form of greatness that comes out of that.

And I I I wonder if if you think that perhaps one of the reasons there aren't great leaders standing out there right now is that it it it forces people like you to go out and do the work yourself, and maybe that's part of the lesson is that we all have to instead of waiting for somebody to come in on a white horse, we all have to self improve. Oh, absolutely. That is the central lesson of American history, and you put it so well. Instead of waiting for someone to come in on a white horse, we have to self improve. It's an individual responsibility, and it's a test on a historic scale.

Is self improvement possible among a great vast number of citizens? Now the most encouraging thing about this world we live in, is that all the books in the world are essentially free and online. And whenever I feel despairing, it just blows my mind. What a miracle it is. How incredibly fortunate we are to live at a time when all these books and texts are free and online.

Think of how people had to fight for access to books and education, and Frederick Douglass who had to buy reading lessons with bread and got his entire education in one book, The Columbian Orator, which he bought with bread. I mean, the sacrifices that he and other heroes have made throughout history. And for us, it's just waiting. It's free and online. All we need is the self discipline to read it.

So it's a very exciting time for self education. We have the resources so that citizens of all backgrounds can educate themselves if they just find the self mastery and self discipline to do it. But that's the challenge, and and it's very distressing that across all income levels and levels of socioeconomic status, people are not reading anymore. And this is not just disadvantaged people. The most educated among us are, as we've been talking, you know, we're addicted to these screens and we're browsing rather than reading.

So it's both a a challenge, but it's a marvelous opportunity. Now that doesn't absolve the need for leadership at every stage. We need leaders to look up to and to help us wanna inculcate these habits. I was inspired just by reading about John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as old men, and the books that they read, and the reading recommendations that they traded. That that inspired me to do more daily deep reading.

I thought, you know, if they can do it with everything else they achieved, then then I can too. So there there's no substitute for leadership and inspiring us to be our best selves, but you're absolutely right. In the end, it's an individual responsibility for each of us, and we do have the resources to educate ourselves if we just can find the self discipline to do it. So assuming time allows, are there other mountains in terms of literature or spiritual literature or other areas that you wanna tackle? I mean, it's it's endless.

It's vast. Lifelong learning is this marvelous, never ending quest, and the more you read, the more you realize how little you know, of course, and you just wanna read more. My next book project is going to be the pursuit of union, and it's stories of the forgotten founders who made America at the constitutional convention. George Wythe and George Mason and Roger Sherman and James Wilson, these names that may be less familiar to listeners who are just as central in making the constitution and defining America. And just telling their stories is so exciting and interesting, and you learn so much from them, and how they balanced a desire for union against other values like ending or preserving slavery or preserving states rights or national power and so forth.

So I'm really excited about that. And, I'm reading at the moment about the fall of Rome and trying to see whether there were analogies to the rise of Caesar then and now, and I'm learning so much there. But what I'm really most excited about, to tell you the truth, is is the songwriting. I really find that very fulfilling, and there's a whole lot of music to write in the future as well. And and, I mean, is music a big part of your life?

Yes. It's my great greatest passion. I've always just, centrally been drawn to it. A lot of classical music. I started with vocal music, opera, and also theater music like Gilbert de Sullivan and broadened out to all sorts of stuff.

And and the the tunes that I write, you know, they're their own thing that they some English folk music and musical theater. But the main goal is just to be catchy, and the greatest compliment I got, which you can't, I couldn't have asked for more. When my son started hearing the songs, he said, this is really weird, but I can't get them out of my head. So that's the goal is that they're catchy, and hopefully, some people will find them pleasing. But mostly, I just do it for myself because I crave music.

I cannot get enough of it. And also, I I I'll just share how meaningful I find deep listening to music. Just, you know, spending an hour really just deep listening to some great performance of some beautiful piece. You lose yourself in the music, you get out of your ego based thoughts, and you connect to the divine. So that's that's fascinating.

I mean, some people okay, so two things. I mean, some people talk about seeing colors when they listen to music, you just talked about connecting to the divine. I mean, I don't have an easy time using music to connect to the divine. I mean, I I do connect to the divine through meditation, through through for me, studying is actually when I read something that is profound, it has this and I I feel like I've got this new insight into just the amazing brilliance of the universe. Like, that that can get me into that more divine place.

And I I'm so envious and interested in people that connect to the divine through music. What what's is there for those of us who are aspiring to get there, are there are there any secrets that we can practice? Deep listening, just like you deep read. Stilling your mind so that you're not thinking of anything else. You're not racing ahead or back, but you're just completely losing yourself in the music.

And if you do that, you may, but through through the habit of deep listening, find that music expresses human emotions and elevates the human spirit and ultimately celebrates God's creation. That's sort of the classical understanding of what music does. But it's a matter of feeling, and you'd I just feel the emotions of music with such scope and depth and color, and and the great performances. Every small little detail resonates. I I just I'm just kind of astounded even thinking about the great music I've listened to just the other day on the treadmill about how extraordinary it is.

For me, it it is a literal reflection of the divine harmonies of the of the universe in in the divine harmonies of of music. And I'm just blown away by how fortunate I am to experience that beauty and that that range of emotion. Oh, but, you know, but it's just you gotta get into the habit of it. It's not just like deep reading. You have to train yourself to to deep listen.

I recently discovered a classical music critic on YouTube called Dave Hurwitz, who has a big following among classical music guys, and I just can't get enough of his commentary. He, you know, he sits in a basement. He's just this guy with the camera turned on. But he's so nuanced and enthusiastic and just both in describing different kinds of music and different kinds of performances that my rule is I listen to him, and then I have to spend as much time listening to the music as I do listening to his videos. And it's just opened up whole new worlds of listening for me because I now understand the historical context and and the nuances of the performances, and it just allows for deep listening in different ways.

So, you know, different people will and then you can any kind of music is is fine. It's a matter of taste. It doesn't have to be classical, of course. But once you develop a habit, it's a practice and it just becomes a really important part of your life and for me it's absolutely a spiritual practice. Did you come by it naturally or was it something that you really had to acquire the taste for?

I think you absolutely cultivated. It's a habit. I started I did my mom took me to a lot of shows and orchestral performances. Mostly, I just listened to records is what they were when I was growing up. And just listening over and over again, you kind of cultivate the habit.

So I started with lighter music like Gilbert de Sullivan, which I adore. And then you start listening to opera, and you start with Mozart, who's really melodic, and then work your way up to maybe Richard Strauss, who I love a lot, and then broaden out from there. And but it just it takes a lot of time. And basically, not doing anything else, just literally sitting and listening to records deeply, and then you just develop the the habits. And and then you find yourself developing taste you didn't know you had.

I listened mostly to vocal music for most of my life, but ever since I started listening to these Dave Hurwitz videos, I'm listening to more chamber music, and string quartets, and orchestral stuff and and modern music, and it's just it's just a habit. You have to train yourself to do it just like you have to train yourself for any other habit. Yeah. It makes sense. I mean, I I can turn my mind off meditating, and yet for whatever reason, I my mind I used to go to the Hollywood Bowl all the time and listen to classical music, and I would always love the experience, and I'd love taking the picnics, and having a bottle of wine, and spend spending time with friends, but I I it was so hard for me to turn off my mind.

And for meditation for me, it's not hard to do it, but but other people say, oh, I can never meditate. My mind can't turn down. And I'm and I always say to them, no, you can do it. You just have to practice, and maybe I have to take my own, you know, medicine, so to speak when it comes to music. Totally.

And you put it so well, turning off your mind. That's that's the goal is to point your mind, so your mind is not distracted by ego based emotions and concerns, anger, jealousy, and fear, perseverating about the past or anxiously speculating about the future, but you're totally pointed and focused. And that for meditation, that could be just trying to think about nothing or to think about a spot. From I'll I'll I'll share that I found that tougher. I've I've read the injunctions about to to meditate by stilling your mind and and pointing it.

And I I find it tough to think about nothing, but I find it really easy to still my mind now by losing it in deep listening to music. So I think it's really just a question of of habit and training. Yeah. And and I also think, you know, some people chant, some people climb to a top of a mountain, some people are runners. And I do think that these different practices speak to each of us in a in a different way.

But I think that if I'm summarizing some of the things we talked about today, that getting away from these echo chambers, getting offline, allowing our minds to calm and emerge into the present moment, and not being so triggered and controlled by these algorithms is really gonna be critical if we are going to take our country back, so to speak, and instead of looking externally at other people and blaming them, realizing we're all being manipulated by these algorithms. We're all gonna have to take a deep breath and take personal responsibility. Beautifully put. We've got to, as you said, stop blaming others and be completely in the present moment. And that means connecting to others and deep listening to them, whether that's listening to opinions we may not immediately agree with or deep listening to music or deep reading and admitting into our minds the the great thoughts of others.

It's connecting to the divine spark in all human beings, the light within as so many of the faith traditions put it, and recognizing that the same light glows in all human beings, and our job is just to get out of our own heads and connect to that universal spirit. Amen. I I love it. Thank you so much for your time, Dave. This is great.

The the questions are great. I love the way you are drawing the connections between deep reading and deep listening and and and and meditation. It's all part of the same spiritual quest to become a little more perfect. The top venture capital beyond is produced by CMVG Advisors. If you enjoyed the conversation today and haven't yet subscribed to our show, you can find us on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, and SoundCloud.

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